I am a patriot, a former service member, and I love my country. As much as I love talking about politics, I have never taken an active protest role in my life. I'm middle-aged, completly non-violent, and I live in a rural area. I am literally the last person in the world you would expect of being a political activist.
Hell, I'm even in favor of some SIGINT, as long as we are talking simple node-to-node analysis. But that's not what happened. What happened was a vaccum cleaner. They're sucking up every piece of meta-data they can get their hands on. And it's not because of some cost-benefit equation that the public was shown. It's simply because they can.
As a patriot, I feel that the only patriotic thing to do for all other patriots is to come out, rally and support Snowden. The government has stepped over the line here, and we all need to clearly let them know that this needs to be fixed.
And no, this case is not the same as Manning. Snowden saw one thing that he was willing to take the penalty for. He released data on one thing. Now, as the natural legislative body of the state, the people can make a choice whether to support him or not based on this one issue. I can support that kind of behavior. Manning betrayed his country by releasing everything he could get his hands on. He is truly an enemy of the system itself. Different thing entirely.
Manning betrayed his country by releasing everything he could get his hands on. He is truly an enemy of the system itself.
What are your thoughts on Snowden referring to Manning as an admirable heroic figure?
Manning betrayed his country by releasing everything he could get his hands on.
I think really there isn't a big difference between the two. Snowden is trusting Greenwald's discretion on what gets published, Manning trusted Wikileaks on what would be published (and recall that Wikileaks did go on to redact a lot of what Manning leaked). Snowden's problem was with eroding civil liberties, Manning's problem was the state carrying out immoral operations (actions which resulted in a loss of many innocent lives). I don't think the two are so markedly dissimilar. At least, besides Snowden being very astute and mature vs. Manning being a troubled, depressed individual with a sad history of personal problems (though, to Manning's credit the chat logs do reveal him to be a very morally aware person).
If you argue that Manning's leaks adversely affected America's geopolitical position, you also have to account for the business ramifications that will follow because of Snowden's leaks. Now all of Europe, Asia, etc. is going to be suspicious about Gmail, Facebook, etc. America just lost a bunch of business from non-American users.
"besides Snowden being very astute and mature vs. Manning being a troubled, depressed individual with a sad history of personal problems"
I am just waiting for all the personality attack pieces. About him not finishing high-school, perhaps some story from training buddies in the military about how he was erratic or behaved oddly and broke his own legs in a foolish way... it doesn't take much until it's easier to believe he was a one-off instead of a courageous and principled patriot who loves his country.
We are all human. For what it's worth any smear that comes his way now will not effect my image of him. He is untouchable.
wow. missed this bit. seems relevant, even if a smear..
<quote>[...] on the day the president [of the USoA] is meeting the Chinese leader,” Baer said, “telling us, listen, quit complaining about espionage and getting on the internet and our hacking. You are doing the same thing.”</quote>
Baer is friendly to the CIA, being a retired agent, and there is incentive for the CIA to muddy the waters. This could very well be the same motivations of a whistleblower. It also co-incided with the beginning of the Bradley Manning trial, did Baer talk about that?
I think really there isn't a big difference between the two. Snowden is trusting Greenwald's discretion on what gets published, Manning trusted Wikileaks on what would be published (and recall that Wikileaks did go on to redact a lot of what Manning leaked)
The big difference is that Manning didn't know what he was releasing.
Snowden himself mentioned the difference between his actions and Manning's. Seriously, go read the interview.
However admirable Snowden may have found Manning's principles, he demonstrated a much different of Manning's actions when he explained his decision to leak what he did.
To agree, and explain what you'd find in the interview:
He practically criticized Manning when he described how he went about preparing the release. There was no reason for him to talk about the meticulousness with which he chose what to leak except as a contrast to Manning.
What do you mean by this, exactly? I was born and raised and still live in that country, and I do not feel the slightest bit betrayed by Manning's actions. If you mean that he betrayed the US government, then I can agree, but the same applies to Snowder. But if you're talking about betraying the entire country as a whole, I think that's up to each person living in that country. I was not betrayed, and I don't think I'm the only one with that opinion. Your next sentence is:
He is truly an enemy of the system itself.
That makes it sound like you're saying that Manning betrayed the government, not the people. That doesn't sound like an entirely different thing than what Snowder did.
Manning betrayed his country by releasing everything he could get his hands on
You don't even know that.
All we know is that he may have tried to release a video where innocent people were being killed for the wrong reason. Since when killing innocent civilians has become a "mission of the State" ?
You know how these things are. Sometimes your lawyer asks you to plead guilty so that you can expect to do fewer years in prison. That does not prove anything.
It's not "some" statements, it's quite lengthy. Seriously, go read his own words, he went to the trouble of saying them and explaining his piece, if you feel you support him you can at least go read what he said.
Comments
I am a patriot, a former service member, and I love my country. As much as I love talking about politics, I have never taken an active protest role in my life. I'm middle-aged, completly non-violent, and I live in a rural area. I am literally the last person in the world you would expect of being a political activist.
Hell, I'm even in favor of some SIGINT, as long as we are talking simple node-to-node analysis. But that's not what happened. What happened was a vaccum cleaner. They're sucking up every piece of meta-data they can get their hands on. And it's not because of some cost-benefit equation that the public was shown. It's simply because they can.
As a patriot, I feel that the only patriotic thing to do for all other patriots is to come out, rally and support Snowden. The government has stepped over the line here, and we all need to clearly let them know that this needs to be fixed.
And no, this case is not the same as Manning. Snowden saw one thing that he was willing to take the penalty for. He released data on one thing. Now, as the natural legislative body of the state, the people can make a choice whether to support him or not based on this one issue. I can support that kind of behavior. Manning betrayed his country by releasing everything he could get his hands on. He is truly an enemy of the system itself. Different thing entirely.
What are your thoughts on Snowden referring to Manning as an admirable heroic figure?
I think really there isn't a big difference between the two. Snowden is trusting Greenwald's discretion on what gets published, Manning trusted Wikileaks on what would be published (and recall that Wikileaks did go on to redact a lot of what Manning leaked). Snowden's problem was with eroding civil liberties, Manning's problem was the state carrying out immoral operations (actions which resulted in a loss of many innocent lives). I don't think the two are so markedly dissimilar. At least, besides Snowden being very astute and mature vs. Manning being a troubled, depressed individual with a sad history of personal problems (though, to Manning's credit the chat logs do reveal him to be a very morally aware person).
If you argue that Manning's leaks adversely affected America's geopolitical position, you also have to account for the business ramifications that will follow because of Snowden's leaks. Now all of Europe, Asia, etc. is going to be suspicious about Gmail, Facebook, etc. America just lost a bunch of business from non-American users.
"besides Snowden being very astute and mature vs. Manning being a troubled, depressed individual with a sad history of personal problems"
I am just waiting for all the personality attack pieces. About him not finishing high-school, perhaps some story from training buddies in the military about how he was erratic or behaved oddly and broke his own legs in a foolish way... it doesn't take much until it's easier to believe he was a one-off instead of a courageous and principled patriot who loves his country.
We are all human. For what it's worth any smear that comes his way now will not effect my image of him. He is untouchable.
"Here come the smears: Snowden possibly a case of 'Chinese espionage"
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/former-cia-officer-officials-cons...
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/343949147210137600
wow. missed this bit. seems relevant, even if a smear..
<quote>[...] on the day the president [of the USoA] is meeting the Chinese leader,” Baer said, “telling us, listen, quit complaining about espionage and getting on the internet and our hacking. You are doing the same thing.”</quote>
Correlation is not causation.
Baer is friendly to the CIA, being a retired agent, and there is incentive for the CIA to muddy the waters. This could very well be the same motivations of a whistleblower. It also co-incided with the beginning of the Bradley Manning trial, did Baer talk about that?
Just as the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, the friend of your friend is not necessarily your friend, either.
The big difference is that Manning didn't know what he was releasing.
Snowden himself mentioned the difference between his actions and Manning's. Seriously, go read the interview.
However admirable Snowden may have found Manning's principles, he demonstrated a much different of Manning's actions when he explained his decision to leak what he did.
To agree, and explain what you'd find in the interview:
He practically criticized Manning when he described how he went about preparing the release. There was no reason for him to talk about the meticulousness with which he chose what to leak except as a contrast to Manning.
What do you mean by this, exactly? I was born and raised and still live in that country, and I do not feel the slightest bit betrayed by Manning's actions. If you mean that he betrayed the US government, then I can agree, but the same applies to Snowder. But if you're talking about betraying the entire country as a whole, I think that's up to each person living in that country. I was not betrayed, and I don't think I'm the only one with that opinion. Your next sentence is:
That makes it sound like you're saying that Manning betrayed the government, not the people. That doesn't sound like an entirely different thing than what Snowder did.
You don't even know that. All we know is that he may have tried to release a video where innocent people were being killed for the wrong reason. Since when killing innocent civilians has become a "mission of the State" ?
Manning admitted it himself in a guilty plea in court. He even made a long statement where he explained why he did it.
You know how these things are. Sometimes your lawyer asks you to plead guilty so that you can expect to do fewer years in prison. That does not prove anything.
As I recall he plead guilty against his attorney's advice...
Manning made some statements after months of torture? Not sure how much stock I'd put in such confessions.
It's not "some" statements, it's quite lengthy. Seriously, go read his own words, he went to the trouble of saying them and explaining his piece, if you feel you support him you can at least go read what he said.
The rally is in NYC's Union Square at noon tomorrow. I will be there.
https://twitter.com/birgittaj/status/343867459129974784
http://ow.ly/lRt5y
Hear hear, my friend. I just contributed $50.