I don't think this particular model is all that great, but I applaud maxklein's willingness to work with a distributed/remote team.
[ rant begins ]
For people who (for whatever reason) can't move to Silicon Valley, it is excruciating to watch all the cool startups in the USA and be stuck with an outsourced enterprise maintenance crap job because that is all that is available locally.
It sucks when you read a startup dev job description, know that you'd be great at it and the very last sentence is "you should be a US resident. No remote working". I understand why people would want that, but it sucks anyway :-P.
I am luckier than most developers in Bangalore - I work on Machine Learning/AI projects, which is where my expertise lies - but working alone is a bit of a drag and if I could work for (just as an example) ReThinkDB without having to move to the USA, I would apply in flash. Working with some of the people I "met" on HN would be awesome. I would happily take a paycut.
Once my present project ends, I'll probably do something like this.
[ rant ends ]
Nutshell: I am very appreciative of any and all attempts by HN folks to work distributed/remote. Go @maxklein!
I share your frustration. Although I do live in the USA, not all regions of the USA are equally prosperous. Though patriotism leads people here to shut their eyes to it, the economy in the state I live in has more in common with third world countries than first world. Yet my wife refuses to move to any other state, so I'm forced to watch countless opportunities to advance my career slide by because they don't allow you to work remotely, while I plod along in a job much less technically interesting than what I'm capable of. It's not a case of fewer engineers competing for jobs at a smaller number of technology companies, it's a case of fewer engineers and exactly zero technology companies. It doesn't matter if there are also fewer skilled/educated workers to compete against, it's still division by zero.
More like division into zero right? If it was by zero, then there'd be no engineers and an undefined supply of jobs.
But more to the point, there are lots of ways to be technically engaged. Elance, guru.com, hireacoder kind of places need technical people and they don't care where you are.
The startup phase into a life style like that (this), can be long and arduous, but also something you can do in your spare time. Point is, if you want to be in a rural area and still have your fingers in technical stuff, there are avenues to that -- the internet.
That's the beauty of the internet. You can do almost anything technical from anywhere, like the main post to this thread... Lots of people, myself included, do. When I talk to my clients/customers, they're always like, "Where are you now?" It's awesome.
I was calculating number of engineering job applicants divided by the number of places to work. That is, supposing there were 100 people and 10 companies, or 20 people and 2 companies, that's still the same ratio of 10 engineers employed per company as you think smaller. But when you scale down far enough, you reach a point where there are zero companies in the sector, yet there are still non-zero number of people wishing to have that kind of job if they could. So you're dividing a nonzero number of people across zero opportunities, and the result is undefined.
In theory, I could do almost anything technical from anywhere, and that's what gives me hope. But society doesn't always change as fast as technology could enable it to - I have yet to find a company actually willing to let me work completely remotely, even though programming or circuit design work could be done that way.
But that's why I am involved in a startup as a side job, and I hope one day we'll be able to employ 100% of our workforce 100% remotely, because there are many capable people living in backwater places. That's the interesting thing about dividing by zero - introducing an undefined result breaks the rules of the system.
Arg. It's not division by zero, it's zero work divided by a finite number of workers. Nor is it an undefined supply of jobs-- should you need the quantity "workers per unit work", then, finally, you'd have an undefined quantity.
Get involved in open-source, it is the best way to be apart of things you wouldn't otherwise have access to as the requirements are simple: 1) show up (virtually), 2) be polite. You seem to have the inclination to be the second. id like to encourage you to do the first.
1. Please show me a state with a per capta gdp that approaches one from the third world.
2. Your wife may be forcing you to stay in state to be with her. Either celebrate your marriage and don't bitch about how it's bringing you down or move on.
It's not a dichotomy; you could equally tell his wife to "celebrate their marriage and not bitch" about moving to somewhere with more opportunities. You should not think about someone's happiness, that does not also think about your own.
I think you making a totally fair point about the symmetry of the situation. However, I think his attitude (and by symmetry probably hers too) is an unhealthy one. He can always think, "were it not for her attitude I, errr we, could be more successful". This is quite a negative thought to hold in your head with someone that you should have an amicable rapport with.
>You should not think about someone's happiness, that does not also think about your own.
I guess you can live by that, but I certainly don't like the dynamics of this towards the limit. If somebody is hurting I don't mind trying to say something. Suffering isn't cool.
Are you married? There is much more to marriage then love. It is a legally binding contract and there are serious consequences for breaking it. Not to mention the social and emotional consequences. There are usually children involved.
If that is your line of reasoning for staying married, it's an unhealthy situation, probably not good for the kids, etc.
People in such situations should focus on communication and progress, possibly with the help of a therapist. Or end the marriage. But plodding along blaming your spouse for your terrible lot in life is no way to raise a family (or save some money).
I've been married 10 years. It's up and down, but in the end, it's what you make of it.
Point taken, but sometimes people just like to bitch about things. It doesn't always mean much. There is always a struggle between selfishness and selflessness. Sometimes marriage is a zero sum game.
GDP is a really bad measure in this case. First of all, the cost of even living, even 3rd-word-level living, is substantially higher here. Additionally, a lot of those 3rd world economies are composed largely of "non-market operations" (subsistence farming, for example) that don't get counted in GDP since they're not a cash transaction.
Also, though the state overall may not be that low, there may be parts of the state that are pretty bad. Rural parts of West Virginia come to mind.
An aside: The area with the 2nd-worst standard of living in the Western Hemisphere is in the US. It's the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota. It doesn't quite apply to this conversation since it's an Indian reservation, but it is a good reminder of just how badly we screwed over the natives.
Hey guys, I'm the one he was criticizing, and I'm voting him back up off 0 on this comment.
1. That may have been hyperbole. A better way to phrase it would be "A state where the tech sector seems to have as little presence as a country with no tech sector at all."
2. My wife and I talked after this. She said she understands the sacrifice I'm making to stay here. I said I I understand that she wants to live near her family.
We have a small distributed development team. We are three people in Sweden, two in London UK, two in San Francisco US. (We also have five non-developers, in London and the Netherlands.) We are not looking to add any further developers outside of these three locations at the moment, as we often have team meetings via Skype and it is a quite hard to keep organized with three time zones already. Especially with the time difference between EU and CA. I spent a couple of months in Asia this winter and it really didn't become any easier.
I suppose it all depends on how the team is used to work and communicate, but I do wish we could have everyone in the same office more often. We have a team meeting in the same location once every six months for 4-5 days, but you can only achieve so much in a few days.
With everyone either having partners, children or both to take into account it isn't always so easy to fit everything together.
"We are not looking to add any further developers outside of these three locations at the moment, as we often have team meetings via Skype and it is a quite hard to keep organized with three time zones already. Especially with the time difference between EU and CA. I spent a couple of months in Asia this winter and it really didn't become any easier."
This is completely fair and rational. You shouldn't have to make any irrational sacrifices to work with people in far away places.
The way I look at this is - I am not (yet, perceived as,) good enough for people to want to work with me in spite of the distance/time difference etc. Lars Bak (for example) [1] is so good that he can work from somewhere in Europe and the rest of the team (and Google) make whatever compromises are necessary. In my opinion the best way to overcome this is to become (and be seen to be) way better than the average. "Be so good they can't ignore you" is good advice.
So, back to work!
[1] From Wikipedia
"In 2004, Bak was hired by Google to work on what was to become the Chrome browser. He did not return to the United States, preferring to work in Denmark where his daughters were also receiving their education. With a team of 12 engineers, Bak has been coordinating the development of the JavaScript machine for Chrome which he has code-named V8, to mirror the powerful automobile engine"
Indeed. Our organisation is incorporated in the Netherlands and four people work there. In all the other locations each "employee" is incorporated under their own name and works as "consultants" for our organisation. It is a higher administrative burden on the individual, but by far the most flexible way of doing it, and probably less work and certainly cheaper than incorporating an entity for our organisation in every country.
Doing this would be more work and would require actually having to employ people in these countries, not to mention consolidated accounts from three subsidiaries, with local accountants, audits etc.
For people who can't move to Silicon Valley, it is excruciating to watch all the cool startups in the USA and be stuck
Guess what, that was exactly the genesis of our startup. Startups are bound to go virtual. The Silicon Valley model should become accessible to anyone with an Internet connection, from anywhere in the world.
So we did http://fairsoftware.net. The only problem, is the imbalance between people with ideas and people willing to implement them.
Working with some of the people I "met" on HN would be awesome.
Totally agreed. That's why we even considered highlighting people from the HN community on our site, kind of like adding a badge of quality/honor. Who knows, we may eventually do it. Because trust and shared passion is so important to starting something together.
"Is there a job site targeted at skilled international workers like you?"
As far as I know there isn't. Most people are (rightly) trying to outsource just the grungy bits for which they (rightly) seek low cost folks through elance etc.
"How do you look for work, and how would people find you?"
I can't answer the general question but as for me specifically,
I have a bit of a unique skillset (AI/ML/compilers, reasonably strong math skills), which, while not in wide demand in Bangalore/India is sufficiently compelling for the few people who do want it (e.g some folks in the local Defence Research labs, telecom companies, financial trading folks and so on). More importantly, over the years I've made a bit of a reputation for straight dealing and delivery on time/below budget.
I have never actively looked for work since I left ThoughtWorks (6 years ago now , yikes! where did the time go?). And I left TW because I was tired of working on enterprise sw. The company and my co workers were great - the work was terrible.
I have enough work for the next five years. Research + coding projects tend to be like that. I constantly turn down projects.
So far so good. The problem is that the "rare skillset" bit cuts both ways - I've been working alone for the last 6 years and would love to work with great people (ideally much smarter than I am) again. That part doesn't seem to work out so well hereabouts. There are some interesting startups coming up but still very early days here. Bradford Cross (of FlightCaster) and I (along with a couple of others) wrote about this at http://measuringmeasures.blogspot.com/2010/02/globalization-... )
Nutshell: As of now I get work via word of mouth from satisfied customers. I don't use any websites etc.
OK, at the risk of getting called out for spamming I can't help but interject here.
I am the founder of a company who's goal is to create an environment where remote contributors are the company. I have one other co-founder and a few more interested in it. None of us live in the same city. I really want to get at least one more really talented person as a co-founder.
Comments
I don't think this particular model is all that great, but I applaud maxklein's willingness to work with a distributed/remote team.
[ rant begins ]
For people who (for whatever reason) can't move to Silicon Valley, it is excruciating to watch all the cool startups in the USA and be stuck with an outsourced enterprise maintenance crap job because that is all that is available locally.
It sucks when you read a startup dev job description, know that you'd be great at it and the very last sentence is "you should be a US resident. No remote working". I understand why people would want that, but it sucks anyway :-P.
I am luckier than most developers in Bangalore - I work on Machine Learning/AI projects, which is where my expertise lies - but working alone is a bit of a drag and if I could work for (just as an example) ReThinkDB without having to move to the USA, I would apply in flash. Working with some of the people I "met" on HN would be awesome. I would happily take a paycut.
Once my present project ends, I'll probably do something like this.
[ rant ends ]
Nutshell: I am very appreciative of any and all attempts by HN folks to work distributed/remote. Go @maxklein!
I share your frustration. Although I do live in the USA, not all regions of the USA are equally prosperous. Though patriotism leads people here to shut their eyes to it, the economy in the state I live in has more in common with third world countries than first world. Yet my wife refuses to move to any other state, so I'm forced to watch countless opportunities to advance my career slide by because they don't allow you to work remotely, while I plod along in a job much less technically interesting than what I'm capable of. It's not a case of fewer engineers competing for jobs at a smaller number of technology companies, it's a case of fewer engineers and exactly zero technology companies. It doesn't matter if there are also fewer skilled/educated workers to compete against, it's still division by zero.
More like division into zero right? If it was by zero, then there'd be no engineers and an undefined supply of jobs.
But more to the point, there are lots of ways to be technically engaged. Elance, guru.com, hireacoder kind of places need technical people and they don't care where you are.
The startup phase into a life style like that (this), can be long and arduous, but also something you can do in your spare time. Point is, if you want to be in a rural area and still have your fingers in technical stuff, there are avenues to that -- the internet.
That's the beauty of the internet. You can do almost anything technical from anywhere, like the main post to this thread... Lots of people, myself included, do. When I talk to my clients/customers, they're always like, "Where are you now?" It's awesome.
I was calculating number of engineering job applicants divided by the number of places to work. That is, supposing there were 100 people and 10 companies, or 20 people and 2 companies, that's still the same ratio of 10 engineers employed per company as you think smaller. But when you scale down far enough, you reach a point where there are zero companies in the sector, yet there are still non-zero number of people wishing to have that kind of job if they could. So you're dividing a nonzero number of people across zero opportunities, and the result is undefined.
In theory, I could do almost anything technical from anywhere, and that's what gives me hope. But society doesn't always change as fast as technology could enable it to - I have yet to find a company actually willing to let me work completely remotely, even though programming or circuit design work could be done that way.
But that's why I am involved in a startup as a side job, and I hope one day we'll be able to employ 100% of our workforce 100% remotely, because there are many capable people living in backwater places. That's the interesting thing about dividing by zero - introducing an undefined result breaks the rules of the system.
Arg. It's not division by zero, it's zero work divided by a finite number of workers. Nor is it an undefined supply of jobs-- should you need the quantity "workers per unit work", then, finally, you'd have an undefined quantity.
WV ?
Get involved in open-source, it is the best way to be apart of things you wouldn't otherwise have access to as the requirements are simple: 1) show up (virtually), 2) be polite. You seem to have the inclination to be the second. id like to encourage you to do the first.
1. Please show me a state with a per capta gdp that approaches one from the third world.
2. Your wife may be forcing you to stay in state to be with her. Either celebrate your marriage and don't bitch about how it's bringing you down or move on.
It's not a dichotomy; you could equally tell his wife to "celebrate their marriage and not bitch" about moving to somewhere with more opportunities. You should not think about someone's happiness, that does not also think about your own.
I think you making a totally fair point about the symmetry of the situation. However, I think his attitude (and by symmetry probably hers too) is an unhealthy one. He can always think, "were it not for her attitude I, errr we, could be more successful". This is quite a negative thought to hold in your head with someone that you should have an amicable rapport with.
>You should not think about someone's happiness, that does not also think about your own.
I guess you can live by that, but I certainly don't like the dynamics of this towards the limit. If somebody is hurting I don't mind trying to say something. Suffering isn't cool.
Are you married? There is much more to marriage then love. It is a legally binding contract and there are serious consequences for breaking it. Not to mention the social and emotional consequences. There are usually children involved.
If that is your line of reasoning for staying married, it's an unhealthy situation, probably not good for the kids, etc.
People in such situations should focus on communication and progress, possibly with the help of a therapist. Or end the marriage. But plodding along blaming your spouse for your terrible lot in life is no way to raise a family (or save some money).
I've been married 10 years. It's up and down, but in the end, it's what you make of it.
Point taken, but sometimes people just like to bitch about things. It doesn't always mean much. There is always a struggle between selfishness and selflessness. Sometimes marriage is a zero sum game.
GDP is a really bad measure in this case. First of all, the cost of even living, even 3rd-word-level living, is substantially higher here. Additionally, a lot of those 3rd world economies are composed largely of "non-market operations" (subsistence farming, for example) that don't get counted in GDP since they're not a cash transaction.
Also, though the state overall may not be that low, there may be parts of the state that are pretty bad. Rural parts of West Virginia come to mind.
An aside: The area with the 2nd-worst standard of living in the Western Hemisphere is in the US. It's the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota. It doesn't quite apply to this conversation since it's an Indian reservation, but it is a good reminder of just how badly we screwed over the natives.
Hey guys, I'm the one he was criticizing, and I'm voting him back up off 0 on this comment.
1. That may have been hyperbole. A better way to phrase it would be "A state where the tech sector seems to have as little presence as a country with no tech sector at all."
2. My wife and I talked after this. She said she understands the sacrifice I'm making to stay here. I said I I understand that she wants to live near her family.
so his choice is to either celebrate his marriage, or celibate it? I'll take celebrate for 900, Alex.
We have a small distributed development team. We are three people in Sweden, two in London UK, two in San Francisco US. (We also have five non-developers, in London and the Netherlands.) We are not looking to add any further developers outside of these three locations at the moment, as we often have team meetings via Skype and it is a quite hard to keep organized with three time zones already. Especially with the time difference between EU and CA. I spent a couple of months in Asia this winter and it really didn't become any easier.
I suppose it all depends on how the team is used to work and communicate, but I do wish we could have everyone in the same office more often. We have a team meeting in the same location once every six months for 4-5 days, but you can only achieve so much in a few days.
With everyone either having partners, children or both to take into account it isn't always so easy to fit everything together.
"We are not looking to add any further developers outside of these three locations at the moment, as we often have team meetings via Skype and it is a quite hard to keep organized with three time zones already. Especially with the time difference between EU and CA. I spent a couple of months in Asia this winter and it really didn't become any easier."
This is completely fair and rational. You shouldn't have to make any irrational sacrifices to work with people in far away places.
The way I look at this is - I am not (yet, perceived as,) good enough for people to want to work with me in spite of the distance/time difference etc. Lars Bak (for example) [1] is so good that he can work from somewhere in Europe and the rest of the team (and Google) make whatever compromises are necessary. In my opinion the best way to overcome this is to become (and be seen to be) way better than the average. "Be so good they can't ignore you" is good advice.
So, back to work!
[1] From Wikipedia
"In 2004, Bak was hired by Google to work on what was to become the Chrome browser. He did not return to the United States, preferring to work in Denmark where his daughters were also receiving their education. With a team of 12 engineers, Bak has been coordinating the development of the JavaScript machine for Chrome which he has code-named V8, to mirror the powerful automobile engine"
Is it difficult to get the paperwork and permits in order to employ people from multiple countries? I've often wondered how that works.
I'd imagine it's done by having a separate entity in each country, or even having each employee incorporate himself.
Indeed. Our organisation is incorporated in the Netherlands and four people work there. In all the other locations each "employee" is incorporated under their own name and works as "consultants" for our organisation. It is a higher administrative burden on the individual, but by far the most flexible way of doing it, and probably less work and certainly cheaper than incorporating an entity for our organisation in every country.
Doing this would be more work and would require actually having to employ people in these countries, not to mention consolidated accounts from three subsidiaries, with local accountants, audits etc.
For people who can't move to Silicon Valley, it is excruciating to watch all the cool startups in the USA and be stuck
Guess what, that was exactly the genesis of our startup. Startups are bound to go virtual. The Silicon Valley model should become accessible to anyone with an Internet connection, from anywhere in the world.
So we did http://fairsoftware.net. The only problem, is the imbalance between people with ideas and people willing to implement them.
Working with some of the people I "met" on HN would be awesome.
Totally agreed. That's why we even considered highlighting people from the HN community on our site, kind of like adding a badge of quality/honor. Who knows, we may eventually do it. Because trust and shared passion is so important to starting something together.
Is there a job site targeted at skilled international workers like you? How do you look for work, and how would people find you?
"Is there a job site targeted at skilled international workers like you?"
As far as I know there isn't. Most people are (rightly) trying to outsource just the grungy bits for which they (rightly) seek low cost folks through elance etc.
"How do you look for work, and how would people find you?"
I can't answer the general question but as for me specifically,
I have a bit of a unique skillset (AI/ML/compilers, reasonably strong math skills), which, while not in wide demand in Bangalore/India is sufficiently compelling for the few people who do want it (e.g some folks in the local Defence Research labs, telecom companies, financial trading folks and so on). More importantly, over the years I've made a bit of a reputation for straight dealing and delivery on time/below budget.
I have never actively looked for work since I left ThoughtWorks (6 years ago now , yikes! where did the time go?). And I left TW because I was tired of working on enterprise sw. The company and my co workers were great - the work was terrible.
I have enough work for the next five years. Research + coding projects tend to be like that. I constantly turn down projects.
So far so good. The problem is that the "rare skillset" bit cuts both ways - I've been working alone for the last 6 years and would love to work with great people (ideally much smarter than I am) again. That part doesn't seem to work out so well hereabouts. There are some interesting startups coming up but still very early days here. Bradford Cross (of FlightCaster) and I (along with a couple of others) wrote about this at http://measuringmeasures.blogspot.com/2010/02/globalization-... )
Nutshell: As of now I get work via word of mouth from satisfied customers. I don't use any websites etc.
OK, at the risk of getting called out for spamming I can't help but interject here.
I am the founder of a company who's goal is to create an environment where remote contributors are the company. I have one other co-founder and a few more interested in it. None of us live in the same city. I really want to get at least one more really talented person as a co-founder.
Please have a look: http://www.fireworksproject.com/pages/extraordinary_people.h...