Yeah maybe you hold everyone at the same admissions standard but it's not true for accessibility to the grants. Will we reach a society where we hope to be born from a more "diverse" race?
That's racism... it's sad that you use racism while believing that you are solving it. Please don't help based on the race, help based on the needs.
Edit: Can anyone debate instead of downvote? That's doesn't seems like an healthy way to change opinions...
Okay so, not so long ago they were only providing grants to women. Did I think to myself oh that's sexist? No, you know why? Because I'm pretty sure they provide the grants to people with needs (at the end of the applying form you check a box that says you'd need financial aid). Yes, they're using filters like gender and race first.
But if you were a white male, you live in a society where you could probably approach any hacker space or anything else without feeling weird about it, unlike many trans*, queer or black/latin@ people. That's the way they're promoting diversity, by creating spaces where people can feel more welcome/safe, they're in no way denying white people or males.
I did find that sexist, maybe you weren't but I was. I was afraid to talk though... this is the sad part I guess.
you live in a society where you could probably approach any hacker space or anything else without feeling weird about it, unlike many trans*, queer or black/latin@ people.
That's what need to be fixed. You don't solve that by giving them money. You solve that by showing we accept them, by stopping people from making them feel weird. A strict policy against racism is what's needed and being vocal about it.
they're in no way denying white people or males.
That's making the issue here way more complicated to talk about for no reason. You need to draw a line between the school and the grant. I'm not saying they are racist for the school admission, I'm saying they are racist for their school grant. They are denying white people that school grant.
Yeah, don't worry. While I may not agree with you on this issue I'm all for your right to express your opinion. However you may have to accept the fact that your opinion may give you a negative backlash, that happens to everyone, how ever it will only give you negative internet points (at least on hn).
A strict policy against racism is what's needed and being vocal about it.
While I agree, how do you enforce that? How do you make sure that actually happens? How do you protect the groups which we agree have certain degree of disadvantage most of the time from the outside?
And even with that enforced, being in an environment where most of the people might hate you based on your gender/sex/skin color won't change your experience based on a paper/set of rules.
They are denying white people that school grant.
They're denying a group the grant. A group that as we have discussed and you seem to agree with me have more advantages, and even if they couldn't afford to go to hackerschool, could go to any other similar space near them. Because again they don't have to fear racism or sexism that can not be controlled.
While I agree, how do you enforce that? How do you make sure that actually happens? How do you protect the groups which we agree have certain degree of disadvantage most of the time from the outside? And even with that enforced, being in an environment where most of the people might hate you based on your gender/sex/skin color won't change your experience based on a paper/set of rules.
Giving them money might fix that? What you do however is punish any racist action that happens. You kick people out of the school when it happens, no second chance. You give people opportunity to talk about it, you talk about it with people. What about a class that everyone need to do which talk about racism.
Now they are saying that it's okay to care about your gender and race, you will get monetary support if there's a possibility of racism... if you are not white...
A group that as we have discussed and you seem to agree with me have more advantages
No I disagree on that part. I know multiple people that are white that have trouble with money and I know plenty of people from other gender/race that doesn't. Generalization is wrong. There's plenty of white people that couldn't afford to go and there's plenty of non-white people that could afford to go.
could go to any other similar space near them
You make me think about it. A good way to use that money would be to help hacker school to stop racism. A safe network of hacker school that fight against racism.
Because again they don't have to fear racism or sexism that can not be controlled.
I still doesn't see how giving them money fix that. I completely agree that's the issue that need to be solved.
This is getting too long and we're going around in circles about the issue.
So the only thing I'm going to reply is:
Giving them money might fix that?
No, they're not trying to battle this issue you want to tackle. Simply because is bigger than them.
I still doesn't see how giving them money fix that.
Again, this is not to fix this huge issue. This is to give other people the chance to assist this and assure them they can feel safe.
There's plenty of white people that couldn't afford to go and there's plenty of non-white people that could afford to go.
And again, they're not giving you the money simply because you're non white. They might give you the grant if you mark any of the checkbox that make you eligible but you still need to check "I'd need financial assistance to do Hacker School" which is not automatically checked as you seem to believe simply because you check that you're non white.
Again, what you propose is that non white people who want to attend to a place like hacker school:
a) wait until racism is non existent
b) deal with ugly situations/experiences because there will be rules to make sure to deal with the cause after
Instead of doing what they want/love and creating safe spaces where they don't have to deal with stuff they shouldn't deal with in the first place.
If you want to keep discussing you can shoot me an email (pcepedam92@gmail.com). I could probably even direct you to people who could answer as to why your proposal of simply solving racism is not as easy, with plenty of real life examples and historical facts.
I'd be happy to! The original post says nothing about Hacker School's desire to "solve racism." Their goal is to increase the diversity of their applicant pool. Having previously instructed at a coding school which had a similar policy, I've fielded similar criticisms. In our case, we offered a 25% (if memory serves me) discount to female applicants. The goal was to spur more gender diversity in our applicant pool, and it worked swimmingly - our first class was a 50/50 gender split.
Despite our own perception of the success of the policy, we received plenty of complaints from both men and women. Ashe Dryden helpfully pointed out to me, when I had the opportunity to ask her opinion, that women on average earn 25% less than men, so really we had just made the program cost the same for women as it did for men.
If women or minorities are discouraged from applying to Hacker School because they would have a hard time paying their living expenses, these grants will help to eliminate that hurdle, thus achieving the goal of more applicant diversity. Needs-based grants wouldn't necessarily achieve that goal. Needs-based grants would also be more difficult from an administrative standpoint as applicants would have to prove their income, which would also invite a regulatory burden.
Here's the definition of racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
How exactly does that apply to a program that's created to help groups that have a systemic disadvantage in this country?
There isn't a Terrible Racism Bandit that has stolen money from minorities, preventing them from attending Hacker School. It's the specter of racism.
The fear that, say, as a Cuban-American, your boss -- the person responsible for your professional development -- might make a whitewater rafting joke at your expense. You know this type of shit is commonplace in tech, and thus you think twice about furthering your career as an engineer by attending Hacker School.
This might seem trivial to straight white guys. This is because they have not experienced first-hand what it means to advance in a socioeconomic system that was built on centuries of slavery and over 140 years of disenfranchisement because they have never been part of that group.
I doesn't find it trivial at all, I simply fail to see how giving them money to help them attend hacker school will stop that boss from doing that joke...
Because it means hacker spaces, and (hopefully) eventually tech work places will be more diverse, which means the boss will feel less comfortable making that joke.
Comments
Yeah maybe you hold everyone at the same admissions standard but it's not true for accessibility to the grants. Will we reach a society where we hope to be born from a more "diverse" race?
That's racism... it's sad that you use racism while believing that you are solving it. Please don't help based on the race, help based on the needs.
Edit: Can anyone debate instead of downvote? That's doesn't seems like an healthy way to change opinions...
Okay so, not so long ago they were only providing grants to women. Did I think to myself oh that's sexist? No, you know why? Because I'm pretty sure they provide the grants to people with needs (at the end of the applying form you check a box that says you'd need financial aid). Yes, they're using filters like gender and race first.
But if you were a white male, you live in a society where you could probably approach any hacker space or anything else without feeling weird about it, unlike many trans*, queer or black/latin@ people. That's the way they're promoting diversity, by creating spaces where people can feel more welcome/safe, they're in no way denying white people or males.
I did find that sexist, maybe you weren't but I was. I was afraid to talk though... this is the sad part I guess.
That's what need to be fixed. You don't solve that by giving them money. You solve that by showing we accept them, by stopping people from making them feel weird. A strict policy against racism is what's needed and being vocal about it.
That's making the issue here way more complicated to talk about for no reason. You need to draw a line between the school and the grant. I'm not saying they are racist for the school admission, I'm saying they are racist for their school grant. They are denying white people that school grant.
Yeah, don't worry. While I may not agree with you on this issue I'm all for your right to express your opinion. However you may have to accept the fact that your opinion may give you a negative backlash, that happens to everyone, how ever it will only give you negative internet points (at least on hn).
While I agree, how do you enforce that? How do you make sure that actually happens? How do you protect the groups which we agree have certain degree of disadvantage most of the time from the outside? And even with that enforced, being in an environment where most of the people might hate you based on your gender/sex/skin color won't change your experience based on a paper/set of rules.
They're denying a group the grant. A group that as we have discussed and you seem to agree with me have more advantages, and even if they couldn't afford to go to hackerschool, could go to any other similar space near them. Because again they don't have to fear racism or sexism that can not be controlled.
edit: fixd typo, more space for read-ability.
Giving them money might fix that? What you do however is punish any racist action that happens. You kick people out of the school when it happens, no second chance. You give people opportunity to talk about it, you talk about it with people. What about a class that everyone need to do which talk about racism.
Now they are saying that it's okay to care about your gender and race, you will get monetary support if there's a possibility of racism... if you are not white...
No I disagree on that part. I know multiple people that are white that have trouble with money and I know plenty of people from other gender/race that doesn't. Generalization is wrong. There's plenty of white people that couldn't afford to go and there's plenty of non-white people that could afford to go.
You make me think about it. A good way to use that money would be to help hacker school to stop racism. A safe network of hacker school that fight against racism.
I still doesn't see how giving them money fix that. I completely agree that's the issue that need to be solved.
This is getting too long and we're going around in circles about the issue.
So the only thing I'm going to reply is:
No, they're not trying to battle this issue you want to tackle. Simply because is bigger than them.
Again, this is not to fix this huge issue. This is to give other people the chance to assist this and assure them they can feel safe.
And again, they're not giving you the money simply because you're non white. They might give you the grant if you mark any of the checkbox that make you eligible but you still need to check "I'd need financial assistance to do Hacker School" which is not automatically checked as you seem to believe simply because you check that you're non white.
Again, what you propose is that non white people who want to attend to a place like hacker school:
a) wait until racism is non existent
b) deal with ugly situations/experiences because there will be rules to make sure to deal with the cause after
Instead of doing what they want/love and creating safe spaces where they don't have to deal with stuff they shouldn't deal with in the first place.
If you want to keep discussing you can shoot me an email (pcepedam92@gmail.com). I could probably even direct you to people who could answer as to why your proposal of simply solving racism is not as easy, with plenty of real life examples and historical facts.
I'd be happy to! The original post says nothing about Hacker School's desire to "solve racism." Their goal is to increase the diversity of their applicant pool. Having previously instructed at a coding school which had a similar policy, I've fielded similar criticisms. In our case, we offered a 25% (if memory serves me) discount to female applicants. The goal was to spur more gender diversity in our applicant pool, and it worked swimmingly - our first class was a 50/50 gender split.
Despite our own perception of the success of the policy, we received plenty of complaints from both men and women. Ashe Dryden helpfully pointed out to me, when I had the opportunity to ask her opinion, that women on average earn 25% less than men, so really we had just made the program cost the same for women as it did for men.
If women or minorities are discouraged from applying to Hacker School because they would have a hard time paying their living expenses, these grants will help to eliminate that hurdle, thus achieving the goal of more applicant diversity. Needs-based grants wouldn't necessarily achieve that goal. Needs-based grants would also be more difficult from an administrative standpoint as applicants would have to prove their income, which would also invite a regulatory burden.
Here's the definition of racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
How exactly does that apply to a program that's created to help groups that have a systemic disadvantage in this country?
Can you describe which systemic disadvantage they have? Does giving them money will solve theses systemic disadvantages?
You're asking for examples of systemic racism and sexism in America? Really?
That affect their ability to go to that school, yeah.
There isn't a Terrible Racism Bandit that has stolen money from minorities, preventing them from attending Hacker School. It's the specter of racism.
The fear that, say, as a Cuban-American, your boss -- the person responsible for your professional development -- might make a whitewater rafting joke at your expense. You know this type of shit is commonplace in tech, and thus you think twice about furthering your career as an engineer by attending Hacker School.
This might seem trivial to straight white guys. This is because they have not experienced first-hand what it means to advance in a socioeconomic system that was built on centuries of slavery and over 140 years of disenfranchisement because they have never been part of that group.
I doesn't find it trivial at all, I simply fail to see how giving them money to help them attend hacker school will stop that boss from doing that joke...
Because it means hacker spaces, and (hopefully) eventually tech work places will be more diverse, which means the boss will feel less comfortable making that joke.