It was great until they turned racists and stopped me from using the service because of my nationality (Russia), even though neither me or the business had anything to do with Russia.
It’s your choice to decide to keep your Russian citizenship. Then you have to pay the price of being a Russian citizen.
It's not as black and white as "just renounce or pay the price". Renouncing your Russian citizenship is not an easy process, and they might even deny your request... It's not like cancelling a Netflix subscription.
And merely being Russian doesn't make someone a bad person or a supporter of Putin's regime.
Do you want to keep it or renounce it? Sounds mostly that you either wanna remain Russian or you are the most lazy person on earth.
Have you ever paid taxes in Russia or any way contributed to Russian society? If so you are directly financing the genocide committed by Russia. Are you at least admitting Russia is engaged in a genocide and that Russia must be defeated and treated just like the third riche?
I'm not Russian. I'm Swedish, born and raised in Dalarna.
I'm not pro the Russian regime, there's really no need for the aggressive tone and insults. All I said is that it really isn't black and white when it comes to renouncing it, and even the Reddit post you linked shows that it isn't an easy process, the comments too describe difficulty in doing it and asking for help, some examples:
Some governments have even stopped enforcing renunciation requirements because people have found it difficult to renounce. One such example is the Netherlands[0]: "There are currently indications within the implementation that naturalized Russians are experiencing problems regarding this renunciation [...] for the time being, it is not enforced for Russians naturalized as Dutch citizens whether Russian nationality is actually being (or has been) renounced."
As I understand, Russia doesn't do citizenship-based taxation like the US does, so I don't have as big of a problem with someone retaining their Russian citizenship when they're living abroad if they find the process difficult/impossible/unrealistic. If they did citizenship-based taxation, then I would have more of a problem with it, as, at that point, it is funding the regime.
I understand why many governments have measures against Russian and Belarusian citizens, but I also sympathize with the people affected.
Are you at least admitting Russia is engaged in a genocide and that Russia must be defeated and treated just like the third riche?
I'm undecided if I'd call it genocide by definition, but there are definitely things that lean towards it, such as abducting children and trying to "russify" them. I definitely believe they should have never started the war - I don't support it at all - and that they have committed tons of war crimes and awful things such as torture, rape, attacking civilians (also in terms of infrastructure), political assassinations, and lots more. It should end with Ukraine having complete control of its own country and being left to live in peace.
But it doesn't mean I automatically believe all Russians are bad people who support the regime, especially if they live abroad and are trying to build a life.
I welcome both Ukrainians and regime-opposing Russians to come and start a life here.
Then you really can't say you has nothing to do with Russia. Citizenship is a very big thing in banking, and legal services. And it's certainly not about race. You could be ethnically Japanese for that matter, it's Russian passport which is the dealbreaker here.
Exactly. You could renounce it and potentially become stateless, which is a whole different problem.
I get it, guilty by association, it isn't fair. The banks need to keep their books clean, anything that could be flagged they will avoid like the plague.
For better or worse, our world has the concept of "citizenship". It is not ideal, but it is what we have settled on. You reap the benefits of your passport (citizenship), but you also bear responsibilities. It is possible to switch nationalities, and I would heartily encourage anyone whose conscience has trouble accepting what their country does to do so.
I sympathize with all Russian citizens living abroad. While citizenship is something you can get out of, it is a long process and circumstances may not easily allow it. I don't think it's fair to discriminate against Russian citizens without hearing their story, even the ones still living in Russia, for actions taken by their rogue government. Do US Americans really want to be held individually accountable for everything Trump does or will do?
I understand how comments like yours and other sibling comments will generate feelings of being treated unfairly: We do not choose our birth country. We do not know the individual's actions, we do not know their political stance, and it is not racist but still discriminatory to use their nationality against them. They're already punished enough by being associated with their government. That's at least how I see it.
Then again, it is probably due to EU wide legislation, so not something Estonia can do much about even if they wanted to. I hope they find emotional support to detach their individuality from how Russians (and Ukrainians!) are treated in general in the current dynamics. It's not their fault as individual, and I'm sorry that they became victims.
There is a second point of view: imagine a Ukrainian living in a Western European country. They moved there because Russian missiles and bombs were falling on their heads and killing their family. They regularly send money to their country to defend against the agressor.
Their neighbor holds a Russian passport. He works at an IT company and earns a nice salary. It's a good life. He complains about being discriminated against. He "doesn't support the aggression". This "not supporting" does not take any material form, he doesn't send money anywhere nor perform any other actions. In the past, he has done absolutely jack squat about the rise of Putin to power (back when doing something was still possible), because he "is apolitical". When the war ends and things blow over, the neighbor will use his Russian passport to go back to Russia, live a good life there using money earned while abroad, and participate in rebuilding the economy, until the next Putin appears on the horizon. He will do absolutely jack squat about the next Putin, because he "is apolitical".
As you can see, it's all upside for the Russian neighbor.
I don't know about others, but something irks me about this common scenario. Sure, there are many subtleties and many ways in which life is complicated. But I see this scenario play out regularly and I can't help thinking that there should be some accountability for the passport you hold.
The real question is what can a citizen do in a none democratic country...
If you were Russian would you publically be protesting the war inside of Russia?
And all the people saying renounce citizenship, is your country gonna give him theirs ? Does Estonia offer free Estonian citizenship to Russians who abandon their's?
The real elephant in the room that I feel doesn't come up enough in these discussions is the fact that Israel is a democracy with freedom to protest etc and they are according to even holocaust survivors committing a genocide and according to mathematica and reports killing countless more civilians yet where is them being cut off from the banking system...
Or UAE in Sudan etc. Etc.
I dunno Russia is always the big boogieman seemingly...
If you were German in Nazi germany would you protest or just complain that French -!: British people discriminate against you for being a German citizen?
I'm talking about double weights and standards aka getting kicked out of the international banking system which wasn't possible in that time (and seemingly is still impossible if you are a friend/ vassal of the usa.
If I lived in nazi Germany I would have left asap to the usa like countless people (Einstein etc) did... Strange how they didn't try and stop people back then getting out...
And if you were are German citizens (not a Jew or another victim) in good standing with the German government. Would you expect that US govt would let you freely do business in the US to acquire things that can be used to kill Americans? It’s just crazy to assume that US would let all german citizens freely roam around USA and do business during ww2
Comments
It was great until they turned racists and stopped me from using the service because of my nationality (Russia), even though neither me or the business had anything to do with Russia.
Oh I wonder why they don’t wanna do business with Russians. Could it be because Russians are threatening to invade, bomb and occupy Estonia?
It’s your choice to decide to keep your Russian citizenship. Then you have to pay the price of being a Russian citizen.
It's not as black and white as "just renounce or pay the price". Renouncing your Russian citizenship is not an easy process, and they might even deny your request... It's not like cancelling a Netflix subscription.
And merely being Russian doesn't make someone a bad person or a supporter of Putin's regime.
Seems pretty straightforward to renounce your citizenship. https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/s/jnQRpzMXCS
Do you want to keep it or renounce it? Sounds mostly that you either wanna remain Russian or you are the most lazy person on earth.
Have you ever paid taxes in Russia or any way contributed to Russian society? If so you are directly financing the genocide committed by Russia. Are you at least admitting Russia is engaged in a genocide and that Russia must be defeated and treated just like the third riche?
I'm not Russian. I'm Swedish, born and raised in Dalarna.
I'm not pro the Russian regime, there's really no need for the aggressive tone and insults. All I said is that it really isn't black and white when it comes to renouncing it, and even the Reddit post you linked shows that it isn't an easy process, the comments too describe difficulty in doing it and asking for help, some examples:
- https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/comments/1lrdngq/...
- https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/comments/1lrdngq/...
- https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/comments/1lrdngq/...
- https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/comments/1lrdngq/...
- https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/comments/1lrdngq/...
- https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/comments/1lrdngq/...
Some governments have even stopped enforcing renunciation requirements because people have found it difficult to renounce. One such example is the Netherlands[0]: "There are currently indications within the implementation that naturalized Russians are experiencing problems regarding this renunciation [...] for the time being, it is not enforced for Russians naturalized as Dutch citizens whether Russian nationality is actually being (or has been) renounced."
As I understand, Russia doesn't do citizenship-based taxation like the US does, so I don't have as big of a problem with someone retaining their Russian citizenship when they're living abroad if they find the process difficult/impossible/unrealistic. If they did citizenship-based taxation, then I would have more of a problem with it, as, at that point, it is funding the regime.
I understand why many governments have measures against Russian and Belarusian citizens, but I also sympathize with the people affected.
I'm undecided if I'd call it genocide by definition, but there are definitely things that lean towards it, such as abducting children and trying to "russify" them. I definitely believe they should have never started the war - I don't support it at all - and that they have committed tons of war crimes and awful things such as torture, rape, attacking civilians (also in terms of infrastructure), political assassinations, and lots more. It should end with Ukraine having complete control of its own country and being left to live in peace.
But it doesn't mean I automatically believe all Russians are bad people who support the regime, especially if they live abroad and are trying to build a life.
I welcome both Ukrainians and regime-opposing Russians to come and start a life here.
[0]: https://puc.overheid.nl/ind/doc/PUC_1312395_1/1/
russian is not a race.
If you are Russian, you have something to do with Russia
are you a russian speaking estonian? or russian citizen?
Russian citizen living abroad
Then you really can't say you has nothing to do with Russia. Citizenship is a very big thing in banking, and legal services. And it's certainly not about race. You could be ethnically Japanese for that matter, it's Russian passport which is the dealbreaker here.
Exactly. You could renounce it and potentially become stateless, which is a whole different problem.
I get it, guilty by association, it isn't fair. The banks need to keep their books clean, anything that could be flagged they will avoid like the plague.
For better or worse, our world has the concept of "citizenship". It is not ideal, but it is what we have settled on. You reap the benefits of your passport (citizenship), but you also bear responsibilities. It is possible to switch nationalities, and I would heartily encourage anyone whose conscience has trouble accepting what their country does to do so.
I sympathize with all Russian citizens living abroad. While citizenship is something you can get out of, it is a long process and circumstances may not easily allow it. I don't think it's fair to discriminate against Russian citizens without hearing their story, even the ones still living in Russia, for actions taken by their rogue government. Do US Americans really want to be held individually accountable for everything Trump does or will do?
I understand how comments like yours and other sibling comments will generate feelings of being treated unfairly: We do not choose our birth country. We do not know the individual's actions, we do not know their political stance, and it is not racist but still discriminatory to use their nationality against them. They're already punished enough by being associated with their government. That's at least how I see it.
Then again, it is probably due to EU wide legislation, so not something Estonia can do much about even if they wanted to. I hope they find emotional support to detach their individuality from how Russians (and Ukrainians!) are treated in general in the current dynamics. It's not their fault as individual, and I'm sorry that they became victims.
There is a second point of view: imagine a Ukrainian living in a Western European country. They moved there because Russian missiles and bombs were falling on their heads and killing their family. They regularly send money to their country to defend against the agressor.
Their neighbor holds a Russian passport. He works at an IT company and earns a nice salary. It's a good life. He complains about being discriminated against. He "doesn't support the aggression". This "not supporting" does not take any material form, he doesn't send money anywhere nor perform any other actions. In the past, he has done absolutely jack squat about the rise of Putin to power (back when doing something was still possible), because he "is apolitical". When the war ends and things blow over, the neighbor will use his Russian passport to go back to Russia, live a good life there using money earned while abroad, and participate in rebuilding the economy, until the next Putin appears on the horizon. He will do absolutely jack squat about the next Putin, because he "is apolitical".
As you can see, it's all upside for the Russian neighbor.
I don't know about others, but something irks me about this common scenario. Sure, there are many subtleties and many ways in which life is complicated. But I see this scenario play out regularly and I can't help thinking that there should be some accountability for the passport you hold.
This just incites hatred. Have you considered that the Russian neighbour might have fled Russia?
Common scenario ?
The real question is what can a citizen do in a none democratic country... If you were Russian would you publically be protesting the war inside of Russia?
And all the people saying renounce citizenship, is your country gonna give him theirs ? Does Estonia offer free Estonian citizenship to Russians who abandon their's?
The real elephant in the room that I feel doesn't come up enough in these discussions is the fact that Israel is a democracy with freedom to protest etc and they are according to even holocaust survivors committing a genocide and according to mathematica and reports killing countless more civilians yet where is them being cut off from the banking system...
Or UAE in Sudan etc. Etc.
I dunno Russia is always the big boogieman seemingly...
If you were German in Nazi germany would you protest or just complain that French -!: British people discriminate against you for being a German citizen?
I'm talking about double weights and standards aka getting kicked out of the international banking system which wasn't possible in that time (and seemingly is still impossible if you are a friend/ vassal of the usa.
If I lived in nazi Germany I would have left asap to the usa like countless people (Einstein etc) did... Strange how they didn't try and stop people back then getting out...
And if you were are German citizens (not a Jew or another victim) in good standing with the German government. Would you expect that US govt would let you freely do business in the US to acquire things that can be used to kill Americans? It’s just crazy to assume that US would let all german citizens freely roam around USA and do business during ww2
Michael Scott: I am a victim of a hate crime. Stanley knows what I'm talking about.
Stanley: That's not what a hate crime is.
Michael Scott: Well, I hated it, a lot, okay.