"You qualify for a $500 scholarship if you're female or from an ethnic minority group underrepresented in the software engineering field (African American, Chicano/Latino, Native American, Pacific Islander, etc.). The tech world is notoriously unrepresentative of the larger population. We believe that the sooner that changes, the better off we all are."
tl;dr: The worst argument in the world is "X is Y, therefore, X must be a typical case of Y". Here, "The DBC policy is discrimination, therefore you should associate with it all the bad things you usually associate with discrimination, irrespective of whether they apply here."
Stripped of its misdirection, your question/argument is, "Isn't that bad for the same reason that 'we don't hire blacks' is bad?" No, it's not. There is a sense in which this kind of discrimination is bad, but there's also a sense in which its good (i.e. disrupting the self-reinforcing cycle of certain demographics dominating the programming field and making those outside of it feel out of place).
There are great arguments about which effect is stronger and/or worse, but they aren't helped by saying "That is discrimination."
Disclaimer: I was in the Spring (first) cohort of DBC, though don't have as glowing a review of the program as everyone else seems to.
People with dwarfism are disproportionally not software developers, too, but it's not trendy to care about them, so DevBootCamp doesn't care.
Transgender people are disproportionally not software developers, but it's not trendy to care about them, so DevBootCamp doesn't care.
White males born into poverty are disproportionally not software developers, but it's not trendy to care about them, so DevBootCamp doesn't care.
Hey, DevBootCamp: What makes an affluent latina more important to you than an impoverished white male? What makes an affluent white woman more important to you than an impoverished Indian with dwarfism?
Hey, I'm not the biggest "diversity" cheerleader in the world, but I think this criticism is over the top.
There is a significant difference between an organization's stated rules and what you can make a phone call and get just for trying. If you belong to the category of not being a white or Asian man, give it a shot.
Being a sourpuss precludes working with people and figuring out what makes sense together. It isn't a good idea.
Do they? Men are now significantly under-represented in college at the undergrad level and the trend is getting worse. What scholarships/retention programs are there for men compared to those for women?
If balance is required, than I suspect it will there in its own due time. There is absolutely no reason to force it.
I remember missing out on a college scholarship because I wasn't hispanic, and while I didn't let that stop me from pursuing my education, I'm still insulted by this sort of reverse discrimination.
"it will there in its own due time" is naive at best!
Those comments dinging Dev Bootcamp as "toxic" or practicing "reverse discrimination" are revealing a dangerous ignorance. Decades of sexism, racism, and systemic oppression of certain groups are not fixed in their own due time just by natural evolution or luck, they need opposing, direct, and intentional forces such as the one attempted here. I recommend if you really care about the subject to do some deeper reading of the ideology and reasons behind laws and trends towards bringing more absent representation into an industry or organization. There will always be individual instances of "injustice" while systematic oppression is being opposed, but whether you like it or not the system is still racist, even if you as an individual are not. So even though you missed out on your scholarship there are thousands of white privileges you've received without knowing or noticing that you need to own up to as well!
Give me an example of this 'injustice' that you speak of? I try to convince everyone I know to become a programmer, white, black, man, woman, etc...and it doesn't matter. People gravitate to whatever they want to work on.
It's not like you minorities can't buy programming books from Barnes and Noble, or can't login to online courses and start learning.
If they don't have a computer, then we're talking strictly about affluence, and that's much different.
You have no idea what you are talking about: the research on aggressions, alienation and social dynamics in male-dominated spaces is extensive. Until you've bothered to do even basic research into a topic, I suggest you don't whine about it. It just makes you look ignorant and unpleasant.
The proof is in the pudding: There are less women in STEM fields and in STEM programs in college. Even making the grandiose assumption that women have the exact same opportunities as men (see above, they don't) fewer women are accepted to universities, they matriculate less, and even less stay in the field. Males on the other hand seem to do just fine. This reveals to us that there is a disparity at each step of the way that is causing women to be unable to compete or desire to.
When one person drops out, it isn't a trend. But when you have industries full of this data combined with a history of sexism and racism, you don't throw your hands up in the air and say "oh the boat will right itself".
Sapna Cheryan, Andrew N. Meltzoff, Saenam Kim, Classrooms matter: The design of virtual classrooms influences gender disparities in computer science classes, Computers & Education, Volume 57, Issue 2, September 2011, Pages 1825-1835, ISSN 0360-1315, 10.1016/j.compedu.2011.02.004.
Available at:
http://ilabs.uw.edu/sites/default/files/Cheryan_Meltzoff_Kim...
Also:
Wendy Cukier, Denise Shortt, and Irene Devine. 2002. Gender and nformation technology: implications of definitions. SIGCSE Bull. 34, 4 (December 2002), 142-148. DOI=10.1145/820127.820188
http://www.jise.org/Volume13/Pdf/007.pdf
Do you have any citations, or are you just pulling your sexism out of your ass?
Comments
Looked neat, and then I saw this:
"You qualify for a $500 scholarship if you're female or from an ethnic minority group underrepresented in the software engineering field (African American, Chicano/Latino, Native American, Pacific Islander, etc.). The tech world is notoriously unrepresentative of the larger population. We believe that the sooner that changes, the better off we all are."
How is that not discrimination?
(I don't work for etsy)
http://www.etsy.com/blog/news/2012/etsy-hacker-grants-suppor... is why etsy is sponsoring this kind of grant at a different but similar Hacker School.
It absolutely is discrimination, but it's a form of discrimination that many (most?) here approve of.
How is that not the "worst argument in the world"?
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4441734
tl;dr: The worst argument in the world is "X is Y, therefore, X must be a typical case of Y". Here, "The DBC policy is discrimination, therefore you should associate with it all the bad things you usually associate with discrimination, irrespective of whether they apply here."
Stripped of its misdirection, your question/argument is, "Isn't that bad for the same reason that 'we don't hire blacks' is bad?" No, it's not. There is a sense in which this kind of discrimination is bad, but there's also a sense in which its good (i.e. disrupting the self-reinforcing cycle of certain demographics dominating the programming field and making those outside of it feel out of place).
There are great arguments about which effect is stronger and/or worse, but they aren't helped by saying "That is discrimination."
Disclaimer: I was in the Spring (first) cohort of DBC, though don't have as glowing a review of the program as everyone else seems to.
Wow. They could have saved space and just said "(not White, Asian, or Indian)".
You're right.
People with dwarfism are disproportionally not software developers, too, but it's not trendy to care about them, so DevBootCamp doesn't care.
Transgender people are disproportionally not software developers, but it's not trendy to care about them, so DevBootCamp doesn't care.
White males born into poverty are disproportionally not software developers, but it's not trendy to care about them, so DevBootCamp doesn't care.
Hey, DevBootCamp: What makes an affluent latina more important to you than an impoverished white male? What makes an affluent white woman more important to you than an impoverished Indian with dwarfism?
Your organization is toxic. Go away.
Hey, I'm not the biggest "diversity" cheerleader in the world, but I think this criticism is over the top.
There is a significant difference between an organization's stated rules and what you can make a phone call and get just for trying. If you belong to the category of not being a white or Asian man, give it a shot.
Being a sourpuss precludes working with people and figuring out what makes sense together. It isn't a good idea.
Almost every higher ed institution has scholarships for under-represented populations.
If you can think of better ways to encourage more balance in our industry I am sincerely open to suggestions.
Do they? Men are now significantly under-represented in college at the undergrad level and the trend is getting worse. What scholarships/retention programs are there for men compared to those for women?
If balance is required, than I suspect it will there in its own due time. There is absolutely no reason to force it.
I remember missing out on a college scholarship because I wasn't hispanic, and while I didn't let that stop me from pursuing my education, I'm still insulted by this sort of reverse discrimination.
Why is this OK?
"it will there in its own due time" is naive at best!
Those comments dinging Dev Bootcamp as "toxic" or practicing "reverse discrimination" are revealing a dangerous ignorance. Decades of sexism, racism, and systemic oppression of certain groups are not fixed in their own due time just by natural evolution or luck, they need opposing, direct, and intentional forces such as the one attempted here. I recommend if you really care about the subject to do some deeper reading of the ideology and reasons behind laws and trends towards bringing more absent representation into an industry or organization. There will always be individual instances of "injustice" while systematic oppression is being opposed, but whether you like it or not the system is still racist, even if you as an individual are not. So even though you missed out on your scholarship there are thousands of white privileges you've received without knowing or noticing that you need to own up to as well!
Give me an example of this 'injustice' that you speak of? I try to convince everyone I know to become a programmer, white, black, man, woman, etc...and it doesn't matter. People gravitate to whatever they want to work on.
It's not like you minorities can't buy programming books from Barnes and Noble, or can't login to online courses and start learning.
If they don't have a computer, then we're talking strictly about affluence, and that's much different.
You have no idea what you are talking about: the research on aggressions, alienation and social dynamics in male-dominated spaces is extensive. Until you've bothered to do even basic research into a topic, I suggest you don't whine about it. It just makes you look ignorant and unpleasant.
I don't know why you are getting downvoted: you are absolutely correct.
You can't just walk away and hope the problem will go away.
You said it yourself: "it didn't stop me from pursuing my own education".
We do know that it is stopping women/minorities from pursuing engineering programs/jobs by way of their male dominated nature.
No, actually we don't. Can you prove that, or is it just hypothesis?
I'll focus on women for a moment:
http://www.commerce.gov/blog/2011/08/03/women-stem-opportuni...
http://www.esa.doc.gov/Reports/women-stem-gender-gap-innovat...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/04/women-engineers_n_1...
The proof is in the pudding: There are less women in STEM fields and in STEM programs in college. Even making the grandiose assumption that women have the exact same opportunities as men (see above, they don't) fewer women are accepted to universities, they matriculate less, and even less stay in the field. Males on the other hand seem to do just fine. This reveals to us that there is a disparity at each step of the way that is causing women to be unable to compete or desire to.
When one person drops out, it isn't a trend. But when you have industries full of this data combined with a history of sexism and racism, you don't throw your hands up in the air and say "oh the boat will right itself".
the obvious explanation is that women aren't as good at STEM subjects.
Sapna Cheryan, Andrew N. Meltzoff, Saenam Kim, Classrooms matter: The design of virtual classrooms influences gender disparities in computer science classes, Computers & Education, Volume 57, Issue 2, September 2011, Pages 1825-1835, ISSN 0360-1315, 10.1016/j.compedu.2011.02.004. Available at: http://ilabs.uw.edu/sites/default/files/Cheryan_Meltzoff_Kim...
Also: Wendy Cukier, Denise Shortt, and Irene Devine. 2002. Gender and nformation technology: implications of definitions. SIGCSE Bull. 34, 4 (December 2002), 142-148. DOI=10.1145/820127.820188 http://www.jise.org/Volume13/Pdf/007.pdf
Do you have any citations, or are you just pulling your sexism out of your ass?
How is any scholarship not discrimination?
Athletes, young mothers, honor students, mcdonalds employees, etc.