Note that this failure didn’t prevent Rogers from buying Shaw and securing an even larger position in the national telecom system. In BC, for instance, there are only two mobile networks now (Telus and Rogers). That places an extremely high burden on two lazy oligopolists to maintain exceptional reliability.
It’s a shame on Canada and on Canadians that foreign competitors are still prohibited from coming into the market.
The Commissioner of Competition was very strongly opposed to the merger, the court ruled against him, and Canadians had to pay Rogers $13 million CAD because he opposed it.
I was a Shaw Mobile (not Freedom) customer, and Rogers wanted me to drive 600km (both ways) through the Kootenay mountains in winter to get my new SIM cards. I told them where to go.
What made Canada special died decades ago, were it not for the strict visa process I would be living in the states (Vermont) right now, with a significantly higher salary (as a principal engineer), a lower income tax, healthier housing market, lower cost of living, and better quality of life.
were it not for the strict visa process I would be living in the states (Vermont) right now, with a significantly higher salary (as a principal engineer), a lower income tax, healthier housing market, lower cost of living, and better quality of life.
Western Europe has all those things, is actually welcoming, has sane healthcare, and you don't even need to own a gun!
Moving from high taxes low pay shortage of housing in popular cities Canada to high taxes low pay shortage of housing in popular citied western Europe I don't think will make much of a difference. Being able to have a gun is an additional freedom.
Outside of tech it's not too different. Tech pay isn't even bad, it just doesn't exhibit the massively inflated salaries of the US. Software is an easier, less professional job than most professional fields, it doesn't make sense for it to command preposterous sums. Though American devs don't like having this fact pointed out to them.
Canada used to say our healthcare was better but that hasnt been true for atleast a decade. Its more choose your version of crappy. Do you want to oay with your life savings (usa) or your life (canada)
If it makes you feel any better, I've been in the healthcare IT field for 20 years. I tried to stay away from the doctors office as much as possible.
Last year I started feeling exhausted 24/7 and tried to make an appointment, but got turned away from my doctors office because my doctor retired and the new guy didn't want to let me make an appointment.
So here I am on a waiting list, in a city where 10% of the population don't have a doctor either. I've been waiting for over a year.
I wish I could change fields, "once you've seen how the sausage is made, you'll want to be a vegetarian"...
Yah you are paying with your life. Its shockingly stupid because there are lots of good examples to oick and choose from how to do a public payor system correctly (singapore does it best imo but nordics and france are options for examples of better tham here just not best)
Yes. Waited 18 months for a 15 minute cateract surgery that I needed 18 months ago. Should have had my license taken away this past year they were so bad.
Shaw didn't have enough capital to continue operating, and foreign ownership restrictions prevented them from raising more. The government decided that Rogers buying Shaw was a better outcome than Shaw going out of business, which is a position I'm inclined to agree with.
I was a Shaw Mobile (not Freedom) customer, and Rogers wanted me to drive 600km (both ways) through the Kootenay mountains in winter to get my new SIM cards.
Shaw didn't have enough capital to continue operating
?
They had $10b+ in equity to work with and had ample opportunity to capture ZIRP if they wanted.
Anything inhibiting Shaw’s ability to raise capital was its dual class structure where the Shaw family retained control despite owning a minority of the shares.
Shaw didn't have enough capital to continue operating, and foreign ownership restrictions prevented them from raising more. The government decided that Rogers buying Shaw was a better outcome than Shaw going out of business
They could also have just eliminated our archaic foreign ownership laws. I am surprised this hasn’t come up in trade negotiations. If we want improved productivity then we desperately need competition. If we don’t get serious about this then we’ll continue to languish economically as a nation.
Rogers support is pretty notorious country wide, I'm sure it still varies at a localized level.
I had a Rogers internet install technician come to my house (for Teksavvy because the gov mandates they run the networks for small operators) and instead of drilling a hole through a wall he opened a window a crack ran the cable through and went home. The girl on the phone couldn't believe my story but I'm sure nothing happened in terms of punishment.
This is the outcome of artificial barriers to competition in the name of national benefit. It doesn't matter how absurd your customer story, neither customers nor the upstart businesses have a choice.
They did mail me SIM cards, three times, for three different numbers each time.
Their system didn't work when setting them up, and I had two different support operators tell me that my only option was to drive to Cranbrook. In the middle of winter. This is a drive that involves 3 mountain passes.
Ok, that's unfortunate, but clearly a technical problem rather than a policy problem. What would you have them do, keep mailing new SIM cards when they have no idea why they're not working?
For devices with low data (text/email/web) usage, there are vendors of global prepaid eSIMs that last 6-24 months, which roam on Bell and Rogers 5G networks, priced around $5/GB, e.g. Eskimo (Singapore) and AIS (Thailand) eSIMs.
Those don't seem that much cheaper compared to local competitors. For instance the cheapest plan at&t offers is $30 USD/month, but public mobile is offering a 40GB unlimited talk text plan for $29 CAD/month ($21 USD).
If you need inbound PSTN calls and SMS (instead of text+audio messengers like WhatsApp, Facetime, Matrix, Signal), you can get a Canadian VOIP PSTN number for USD $3/month, e.g. https://www.callcentric.com/dids/pay_per_minute, which can "ring" your phone via SIP client app, call forward from Canada to any global number at your expense, or relay audio voicemails as mp3 via email.
Not for extended international use; you must reside in the U.S. and primary usage must occur on our network. Device must register on our network before international use. Service may be terminated or restricted for excessive roaming. Coverage not available in some areas; we are not responsible for our partners’ networks.
> AT&T ROAM NORTH AMERICA FEATURE: Allows plan data, talk & text usage with no roaming charges in and to Mexico/Canada. Data: Allows domestic plan data usage in Mexico/Canada.
Eskimo (Singapore telco) has both North America and Global eSIMs.
You should more directly ask, why is foreign competition vital?
Preventing domestic mergers, and ensuring domestic competition exists are viable alternatives.
With viable alternatives available, when it comes to domestic telco and networking, you want domestic control. A nation is benefited by domestic ownership of its own infrastructure.
This is inline with domestic food production, manufacturing of defense products, transportation infrastructure, and on and on.
Domestic control is an aspect of sovereignty.
Now again, I want competition. The problem isn't foreign competition, it's a lack of domestic.
The Harper Conservatives worked on this, limiting spectrum auction to induce competition and so on.
I suspect someone had a pet peeve, re domestic cost of services. One thing about government, is that often politicians get into the politicking business because something pissed them off.
So I suspect someone was cheesed at costs, or customer service, and made it their thing. Sadly, it was dropped by the next government.
Another example would be the Trudeau Liberals overhauling the entire ombudsman process for banks, along with intense investigation into retail banking processes.
Prior, the ombudsman was an escalation process that ended up at a provincial ombudsman's office... jointly owned by the banks!
Again, I expect someone in the current government was cheesed at banking chicanery.
Regardless, we can get competition without foreign competitors. It just takes a government caring enough.
And it would take just as much push to drop foreign ownership requirements, as to limit spectrum, prevent mergers, etc.
Compared to networking being routed and controlled external to domestic laws, as a starter?
When the patriot act was passed in the US, suddenly some Canadian credit card holders, whos companies which had processing centers in the US, had all of their transaction info shared with US homeland.
If the corporate entity is domestic, foreign powers won't have control over their domestic corps, managing foreign infra.
It’s a shame on Canada and on Canadians that foreign competitors are still prohibited from coming into the market.
Yeah during NAFTA 2, Canadians were all for protecting high prices and very little choice just to show Trump and the USA that they could take their cheap prices and value and shove it.
Rogers, Bell and Telus went on and made Trudeau classify them as Canadian media companies so they would never have any competition from the USA.
I guess Canadians like high prices and little choice..
Comments
Note that this failure didn’t prevent Rogers from buying Shaw and securing an even larger position in the national telecom system. In BC, for instance, there are only two mobile networks now (Telus and Rogers). That places an extremely high burden on two lazy oligopolists to maintain exceptional reliability.
It’s a shame on Canada and on Canadians that foreign competitors are still prohibited from coming into the market.
Yep.
Allowing Rogers to purchase Shaw was absurd.
The Commissioner of Competition was very strongly opposed to the merger, the court ruled against him, and Canadians had to pay Rogers $13 million CAD because he opposed it.
I was a Shaw Mobile (not Freedom) customer, and Rogers wanted me to drive 600km (both ways) through the Kootenay mountains in winter to get my new SIM cards. I told them where to go.
Rogers is junk and Canada is an oligarchy.
Small world - I live in the Kootenays. I am guessing you are in Nelson only because it seems to be 600km from everything :-)
Close enough though a bit more in the boonies.
They wanted me to drive to the Rogers store in Cranbrook or Kelowna.
Well next time you are in Cranbrook feel free to drop me a note if you want to grab a coffee or beer. My contact is in my profile.
Sounds good! I'm usually in Cranbrook a couple times a year.
Huh, very small world. Me too :)
I’m in Cranbrook. Perhaps we need to establish the smaller HN IRL meetup :-)
Nelson has a "tech people meetup" pretty often.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/kootenayworkers/
On Facebook? What irony.
No, that is just the page used to organize the face to face meetups
Split the difference, meet in Creston at Jimmy's Pub (pretty well equidistant from Nelson, Cranbrook, Trail). I can walk over there too.
What made Canada special died decades ago, were it not for the strict visa process I would be living in the states (Vermont) right now, with a significantly higher salary (as a principal engineer), a lower income tax, healthier housing market, lower cost of living, and better quality of life.
Funny thing, I lived outside of Canada for many years though I am Canadian born and raised. I moved my family back for a "better quality of life".
Jokes on me. ;)
I love the land and the people, but, the country itself is a mess. We have already planned our exit.
Where too? It's crossing my mind more and more lately.
What makes Canada strong is its people, whom I love very much.
I wish our gov't served us better, and I try my best to enact change, but it's a fool who thinks any country is without its faults.
I love Canadians. And Americans.
And I've lived in a few different countries in my life. No country is without faults, but, Canada right now is a mess.
Western Europe has all those things, is actually welcoming, has sane healthcare, and you don't even need to own a gun!
Moving from high taxes low pay shortage of housing in popular cities Canada to high taxes low pay shortage of housing in popular citied western Europe I don't think will make much of a difference. Being able to have a gun is an additional freedom.
It doesn't have the salary, eng salaries are significant deflated in Europe when compared to North America
Outside of tech it's not too different. Tech pay isn't even bad, it just doesn't exhibit the massively inflated salaries of the US. Software is an easier, less professional job than most professional fields, it doesn't make sense for it to command preposterous sums. Though American devs don't like having this fact pointed out to them.
Are you in software development?
Yes, why? Coming from a family of actual engineers, I call myself a developer. Software workers haven't earned the title engineer.
TBH I call myself and most software devs an engineer. It gives us something to aspire to.
Canada used to say our healthcare was better but that hasnt been true for atleast a decade. Its more choose your version of crappy. Do you want to oay with your life savings (usa) or your life (canada)
I (born and raised Canadian) moved my family to Canada 5 years ago.
We've been on a waiting list for a doctor ever since. My only option to see a doctor here is to go the emergency room at the closest hospital.
If it makes you feel any better, I've been in the healthcare IT field for 20 years. I tried to stay away from the doctors office as much as possible.
Last year I started feeling exhausted 24/7 and tried to make an appointment, but got turned away from my doctors office because my doctor retired and the new guy didn't want to let me make an appointment.
So here I am on a waiting list, in a city where 10% of the population don't have a doctor either. I've been waiting for over a year.
I wish I could change fields, "once you've seen how the sausage is made, you'll want to be a vegetarian"...
Yah you are paying with your life. Its shockingly stupid because there are lots of good examples to oick and choose from how to do a public payor system correctly (singapore does it best imo but nordics and france are options for examples of better tham here just not best)
Yes. Waited 18 months for a 15 minute cateract surgery that I needed 18 months ago. Should have had my license taken away this past year they were so bad.
Shaw didn't have enough capital to continue operating, and foreign ownership restrictions prevented them from raising more. The government decided that Rogers buying Shaw was a better outcome than Shaw going out of business, which is a position I'm inclined to agree with.
I was a Shaw Mobile (not Freedom) customer, and Rogers wanted me to drive 600km (both ways) through the Kootenay mountains in winter to get my new SIM cards.
Weird. They mailed my new SIM cards to me.
?
They had $10b+ in equity to work with and had ample opportunity to capture ZIRP if they wanted.
Anything inhibiting Shaw’s ability to raise capital was its dual class structure where the Shaw family retained control despite owning a minority of the shares.
$10B isn't enough to set up a 5G network. And... I guess it's a good thing they didn't assume ZIRP would be around forever?
Dunno if it was post-Quebecor acquisition, but Freedom Mobile did just that. Not every populated area, just their existing footprint.
Post acquisition. Part of the agreement was that Quebecor was going to put a lot of money into building new infrastructure.
They could also have just eliminated our archaic foreign ownership laws. I am surprised this hasn’t come up in trade negotiations. If we want improved productivity then we desperately need competition. If we don’t get serious about this then we’ll continue to languish economically as a nation.
Right, that would have been my preferred solution. But for unfortunately that's not something the current government is inclined to consider.
Rogers support is pretty notorious country wide, I'm sure it still varies at a localized level.
I had a Rogers internet install technician come to my house (for Teksavvy because the gov mandates they run the networks for small operators) and instead of drilling a hole through a wall he opened a window a crack ran the cable through and went home. The girl on the phone couldn't believe my story but I'm sure nothing happened in terms of punishment.
This is the outcome of artificial barriers to competition in the name of national benefit. It doesn't matter how absurd your customer story, neither customers nor the upstart businesses have a choice.
They did mail me SIM cards, three times, for three different numbers each time.
Their system didn't work when setting them up, and I had two different support operators tell me that my only option was to drive to Cranbrook. In the middle of winter. This is a drive that involves 3 mountain passes.
Ok, that's unfortunate, but clearly a technical problem rather than a policy problem. What would you have them do, keep mailing new SIM cards when they have no idea why they're not working?
> foreign competitors are still prohibited from coming into the market
There is some foreign competition via roaming, e.g. both T-Mobile and AT&T have US mobile postpaid plans with unlimited Canadian roaming, https://www.att.com/international/canada-roaming/ & https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone-plans/use-your-phone-in-...
For devices with low data (text/email/web) usage, there are vendors of global prepaid eSIMs that last 6-24 months, which roam on Bell and Rogers 5G networks, priced around $5/GB, e.g. Eskimo (Singapore) and AIS (Thailand) eSIMs.
Those don't seem that much cheaper compared to local competitors. For instance the cheapest plan at&t offers is $30 USD/month, but public mobile is offering a 40GB unlimited talk text plan for $29 CAD/month ($21 USD).
These aren’t real options as anyone calling you back will be forced to pay long distance.
If you need inbound PSTN calls and SMS (instead of text+audio messengers like WhatsApp, Facetime, Matrix, Signal), you can get a Canadian VOIP PSTN number for USD $3/month, e.g. https://www.callcentric.com/dids/pay_per_minute, which can "ring" your phone via SIP client app, call forward from Canada to any global number at your expense, or relay audio voicemails as mp3 via email.
Ok, now explain that to enough people that this solution actually works as a real proxy for competition.
It allows individuals who do care about competition to stop funding oligopolists.
I agree, though I would prefer a solution that actually leads to the weakening of the oligopolists.
VoIP.ms would be cheaper for a DID
> AT&T ROAM NORTH AMERICA FEATURE: Allows plan data, talk & text usage with no roaming charges in and to Mexico/Canada. Data: Allows domestic plan data usage in Mexico/Canada.
Eskimo (Singapore telco) has both North America and Global eSIMs.
It’s a shame on Canada and on Canadians that foreign competitors are still prohibited from coming into the market.
No, no it isn't a shame, it's great.
Go on. Why?
You should more directly ask, why is foreign competition vital?
Preventing domestic mergers, and ensuring domestic competition exists are viable alternatives.
With viable alternatives available, when it comes to domestic telco and networking, you want domestic control. A nation is benefited by domestic ownership of its own infrastructure.
This is inline with domestic food production, manufacturing of defense products, transportation infrastructure, and on and on.
Domestic control is an aspect of sovereignty.
Now again, I want competition. The problem isn't foreign competition, it's a lack of domestic.
The Harper Conservatives worked on this, limiting spectrum auction to induce competition and so on.
I suspect someone had a pet peeve, re domestic cost of services. One thing about government, is that often politicians get into the politicking business because something pissed them off.
So I suspect someone was cheesed at costs, or customer service, and made it their thing. Sadly, it was dropped by the next government.
Another example would be the Trudeau Liberals overhauling the entire ombudsman process for banks, along with intense investigation into retail banking processes.
Prior, the ombudsman was an escalation process that ended up at a provincial ombudsman's office... jointly owned by the banks!
Again, I expect someone in the current government was cheesed at banking chicanery.
Regardless, we can get competition without foreign competitors. It just takes a government caring enough.
And it would take just as much push to drop foreign ownership requirements, as to limit spectrum, prevent mergers, etc.
I think foreign competition has some unique features that are beneficial:
— cross pollination of talent, knowledge, technology, etc;
— less susceptible to being eliminated when a future government caves on some of the rules you’ve mentioned
Compared to networking being routed and controlled external to domestic laws, as a starter?
When the patriot act was passed in the US, suddenly some Canadian credit card holders, whos companies which had processing centers in the US, had all of their transaction info shared with US homeland.
If the corporate entity is domestic, foreign powers won't have control over their domestic corps, managing foreign infra.
Shaw customer base was acquired by Rogers, but they weren't allowed to absorb Freedom Mobile, which went to Quebecor.
Shaw Mobile on the other hand, did go to Rogers.
Shaw Mobile was an MVNO. It didn't have any towers or network infra. I don't think it going to Rogers reduced competition in the market.
Thankfully there's still a 3rd player running it's own mobile infrastructure.
If you mean Bell, they are near non-existent in these parts.
Yeah during NAFTA 2, Canadians were all for protecting high prices and very little choice just to show Trump and the USA that they could take their cheap prices and value and shove it.
Rogers, Bell and Telus went on and made Trudeau classify them as Canadian media companies so they would never have any competition from the USA.
I guess Canadians like high prices and little choice..