180nm is “potato quality” but still commonly used for automotive chips like PMICs. Though I suspect you’re right that a newer node would cost the same.
180 nm fabs are getting to the point where replacing machines is prohibitively expensive and spare parts have to be custom made.
That SiFive FE-310 chip on the HiFive1 on 180nm in 2016 was a 32 bit 1 instruction per cycle 5-stage pipelined CPU running at 320 MHz.
That's way more than typical microcontrollers in embedded uses even today -- 24 or 48 MHz is very common for e.g. Cortex M0+ and you seldom find over 180 MHz for Cortex M3/M4. Those (or competitors) make up the vast bulk of the market.
That 320 MHz is with automated placement and routing with a standard cell library. Back when 180nm was new both Intel (Pentium III) and Motorola (G4) were getting 1 GHz or a bit more out of it with a lot of engineers using a much more manual process.
180 nm fabs are getting to the point where replacing machines is prohibitively expensive and spare parts have to be custom made.
Do you have a reference for that? I'm not sure why it would be true.
180nm lines have many other advantages, like better transistor gain for analog, lower leakage, more advanced device types and BCD. Some 180nm lines can also do MEMS. Maybe a couple of foundries are struggling but I would've thought 180nm was still going pretty strong.
180nm is still going plenty strong and the fabs get a constant stream of upgrades, but the lithography systems are officially EOL. ASML/Nikon/Canon don’t make them anymore except for the occasional (very expensive) custom order and the cost of repairing them is steadily increasing. If they don’t need the bigger node size, greenfield projects are better off with a smaller node but anyone with an existing design is going to keep using it.
It’s just a cost-curve thing - older nodes eventually hit the other end of the bathtub curve where keeping the fab running gets more and more expensive while newer nodes are still cheap.
"Did you know that approximately 95% of ASML lithography systems sold in the past 30 years are still active in the field? As of the end of 2022, more than 5,000 of our machines are hard at work in chipmaking fabs globally – a feat made possible by the fact that our systems can be repaired, refurbished and repurposed throughout their life cycles. It’s all part of our commitment to supporting a circular economy in the semiconductor industry that reduces waste, adds value and lessens environmental impact."
"Currently there’s a growing market in the semiconductor industry for mature DUV technology solutions. Refurbished systems provide cost-effective options for chipmakers looking to scale up in that area."
Those TwinScan systems are much newer than the PAS5500 series I'm familiar with (the one they're really bragging about in that article with the 95% stat). ASML doesn't sell them anymore, they only offer the refurbishment program: https://www.asml.com/en/products/refurbished-systems
Sooner rather than later it'll be cheaper to buy a TwinScan system than to fix a PAS5500/750, but at that point why would the fab keep making 180nm chips when they can make more money making 45nm chips with the same system? Last I checked, some critical parts already had 1+ year lead times because they had to be made to order so fabs have to keep their own stock.
Edit: Sorry I misused "EOL" in a previous comment. They're still being supported my ASML, but you can't buy a new machine so expanding a fab means upgrading the node.
I suppose it depends what they're printing and why. There are plenty of structures that will want to be 180nm and larger for many years to come.
But I definitely agree that pretty soon it will make no sense to artificially limit printing resolution and, for high volume manufacturing, buying a new machine that can't do better than 180nm will make little sense.
TSMC is phasing out 180nm officially already for 2 years due to demand on more advanced nodes like 65nm or 40nm. All the BCD stuff is implemented on those processes too. They are moving the equipment used in 180nm to these newer nodes. I think they don't want anything laeger than 110nm.
Likely 180 nm is fine when you have little and slow logic, don't care about power efficiency too much, and want to integrate output pins rated at 500 mA. Much of car electronics is like this.
Comments
180nm is “potato quality” but still commonly used for automotive chips like PMICs. Though I suspect you’re right that a newer node would cost the same.
180 nm fabs are getting to the point where replacing machines is prohibitively expensive and spare parts have to be custom made.
That SiFive FE-310 chip on the HiFive1 on 180nm in 2016 was a 32 bit 1 instruction per cycle 5-stage pipelined CPU running at 320 MHz.
That's way more than typical microcontrollers in embedded uses even today -- 24 or 48 MHz is very common for e.g. Cortex M0+ and you seldom find over 180 MHz for Cortex M3/M4. Those (or competitors) make up the vast bulk of the market.
That 320 MHz is with automated placement and routing with a standard cell library. Back when 180nm was new both Intel (Pentium III) and Motorola (G4) were getting 1 GHz or a bit more out of it with a lot of engineers using a much more manual process.
Do you have a reference for that? I'm not sure why it would be true.
180nm lines have many other advantages, like better transistor gain for analog, lower leakage, more advanced device types and BCD. Some 180nm lines can also do MEMS. Maybe a couple of foundries are struggling but I would've thought 180nm was still going pretty strong.
180nm is still going plenty strong and the fabs get a constant stream of upgrades, but the lithography systems are officially EOL. ASML/Nikon/Canon don’t make them anymore except for the occasional (very expensive) custom order and the cost of repairing them is steadily increasing. If they don’t need the bigger node size, greenfield projects are better off with a smaller node but anyone with an existing design is going to keep using it.
It’s just a cost-curve thing - older nodes eventually hit the other end of the bathtub curve where keeping the fab running gets more and more expensive while newer nodes are still cheap.
That doesn't really match my experience. I could be totally wrong though because I don't get to look at the books.
ASML it still announcing DUV systems on their product page. I would think this would mean they would be very happy to sell you a new one. https://www.asml.com/en/products/duv-lithography-systems
And machine revitalization and refurbishment is an important selling point for this kind of capital equipment.
https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2023/revitalization-thr...
"Did you know that approximately 95% of ASML lithography systems sold in the past 30 years are still active in the field? As of the end of 2022, more than 5,000 of our machines are hard at work in chipmaking fabs globally – a feat made possible by the fact that our systems can be repaired, refurbished and repurposed throughout their life cycles. It’s all part of our commitment to supporting a circular economy in the semiconductor industry that reduces waste, adds value and lessens environmental impact."
"Currently there’s a growing market in the semiconductor industry for mature DUV technology solutions. Refurbished systems provide cost-effective options for chipmakers looking to scale up in that area."
Those TwinScan systems are much newer than the PAS5500 series I'm familiar with (the one they're really bragging about in that article with the 95% stat). ASML doesn't sell them anymore, they only offer the refurbishment program: https://www.asml.com/en/products/refurbished-systems
Sooner rather than later it'll be cheaper to buy a TwinScan system than to fix a PAS5500/750, but at that point why would the fab keep making 180nm chips when they can make more money making 45nm chips with the same system? Last I checked, some critical parts already had 1+ year lead times because they had to be made to order so fabs have to keep their own stock.
Edit: Sorry I misused "EOL" in a previous comment. They're still being supported my ASML, but you can't buy a new machine so expanding a fab means upgrading the node.
I suppose it depends what they're printing and why. There are plenty of structures that will want to be 180nm and larger for many years to come.
But I definitely agree that pretty soon it will make no sense to artificially limit printing resolution and, for high volume manufacturing, buying a new machine that can't do better than 180nm will make little sense.
TSMC is phasing out 180nm officially already for 2 years due to demand on more advanced nodes like 65nm or 40nm. All the BCD stuff is implemented on those processes too. They are moving the equipment used in 180nm to these newer nodes. I think they don't want anything laeger than 110nm.
Likely 180 nm is fine when you have little and slow logic, don't care about power efficiency too much, and want to integrate output pins rated at 500 mA. Much of car electronics is like this.