Twitch Interactive, the operator of the service, reduced video quality in Korea from 1080p to 720p in September 2022 and terminated its VOD service five months later.
The Korea Telecommunications Commission (KCC) determined the suspension of the VOD service violated the local telecommunications business law by undermining the interests of users.
The commission has requested relevant data to examine whether Twitch had a justifiable reason for limiting the maximum viewing quality, but Twitch turned down the request, citing contractual confidentiality obligations.
I wonder what the relevant law says. Forcing a non-essential website to host and stream video content feels strange to say the least, especially given that streaming software like OBS can easily record the video locally to be uploaded to YouTube, AfreecaTV or whatever.
If it's deemed essential then the ISPs shouldn't be able to extort and extract profits from both sides of the pipe.
Also wonder why Twitch didn't provide the numbers given that they have already publicly said that the costs are high.
Also wonder why Twitch didn't provide the numbers given that they have already publicly said that the costs are high.
All web service operators including Twitch have signed an NDA about their cost of data transfer. But there are some estimations. 50-90 billions in KRW per year (from a financial report by Daishin Securities)
Non essential doesn’t play into it. If you’re in a regulated industry and there’s conditions - be it airwave spectrum, minimal service criteria or something else, you have to operate within those conditions.
There’s a lot of countries and they all have different rules. Twitch likely isn’t regulated as a video game streaming service in most of them because there’s no reason for countries to create specialized rubles around video game streaming vs use some other more generic rules.
Companies really should consult lawyers when expanding to a new country.
Often the rules that require things of a company have penalties for non-compliance.
Those penalties don't always have exemptions for stopping service. In fact it might have the opposite to avoid trying to put political pressure by doing that.
Doesn't mean it is a regulated industry which is actually a very narrow term.
Remember you are generally required to follow regulations to collect sales tax which covers almost every company. That doesn't mean you are a regulated industry.
What is a regulated industry? I'm not aware of it as a legal term. Basically all industries are regulated in my understanding to a greater or lesser degree. Even in a lesser one, you can run up against those regs
Medicine is a regulated industry. You can’t work as a doctor without an MD and good standing with the local licensing agency.
Banking is a regulated industry. You can’t start a bank without first asking permission. Your employees are held to higher standards than other industries, and with criminal repercussions for intentional or negligent violations.
Per that definition, there are no unregulated industries. This seems contrary the the argument that regulated industry is a "very narrow" term, and the regulations on twitch in SK obviously don't count
You should go reread the conversation as your response indicates that you misunderstand the person you are replying to, suggesting that you didn't follow the thread very closely.
Summarizing the salient bits here:
>>> Those penalties don't always have exemptions for stopping service. In fact it might have the opposite to avoid trying to put political pressure by doing that.
>>> Doesn't mean it is a regulated industry which is actually a very narrow term.
>> What is a regulated industry? I'm not aware of it as a legal term. Basically all industries are regulated in my understanding to a greater or lesser degree. Even in a lesser one, you can run up against those regs
> [insert blurb about concrete instances of "regulated industries", where an intensional definition was clearly desired instead (not an incomplete, extensional definition)]
Not a very operational definition. You can't start a hot dog stand without permission either.
So, from the top: some industries are regulated. But, oh, not all industries which are subject to regulation are what we would call "regulated industries" -- that's "a very narrow term."
Great! What exactly is the definition of that very narrow term?
The immediate response to that inquiry was several supposed examples of "regulated industries".
But that's not a satisfactory response, because it doesn't generalize. For instance, a hot dog stand is subject to regulation ("you can't start a hot dog stand without permission either") -- but is it a so called "regulated industry" (which, remember, "is actually a very narrow term")?
And then we have your response:
That’s because restaurants are, believe it or not, also a regulated industry.
The sarcasm is cheeky, but it still doesn't provide a meaningful answer to the original question: if not all industries which are regulated are "regulated industries", then what exactly does "regulated industry" mean?
So, a couple questions for you:
1) How do you know that restaurants fit the original commentator's definition of "regulated industry"? Were you told that restaurants are among the set of "regulated industries", which you've accepted without understanding why?
2) If you actually do know what makes restaurants a "regulated industry" (not merely just regulated), why not share the definition?
3) Alternatively, could it be that neither of the first two question apply: you made your comment without first comprehending the conversation?
a type of business that is controlled by government rules
And here's the comment that kicked off this sub-thread:
Often the rules that require things of a company have penalties for non-compliance.
[...]
Doesn't mean it is a regulated industry which is actually a very narrow term.
So a regulated industry is a type of business that is controlled by government rules, but (per the aforementioned comment) not all businesses which are controlled by government rules are regulated industries.
So, again, I think the response of
That’s because restaurants are, believe it or not, also a regulated industry.
is a bizarre blend of unhelpful and rude.
Perhaps you and I will just have to agree to disagree on that point.
“Regulated industry” is something very specific and different from general commerce regulation.
Banks are regulated industry. If you want to start a bank you have to submit your business plan to regulators for approval, and then operate within very strict rules with criminal penalties for intentional deviation, and government inspectors who come by to make sure everything is by the book.
Twitch, a video game streaming service, being regulated in the way investment banks and nuclear power stations are regulated is a weird claim to make.
“Regulated industry” is something very specific ... different from general commerce regulation
Telecommunications is generally a regulated industry in most countries, as is broadcast media
Twitch ... being regulated in the way investment banks and nuclear power stations are regulated is a weird claim to make
You are literally responding to an article that explicitly says Twitch was fined by the regulatory body in charge of telecommunications, not a "general commerce [regulator]"
Afaict this is "you're in a regulated industry [whether or not it should be is irrelevant] but you're also not allowed to cease operation or leave that regulated industry, or you'll be subject to fines".
Honestly it's one of the better systems for dealing with the "we aren't going to comply with the law, we'll just leave" (for some definition of leave) problem. If you try to pull this trick without pulling all of your business out of SK (i.e. Amazon) they can still collect the fine.
Probably cuts down on the performative exits >.> Facebook in the EU, in an attempt to bully regulators.
Sender pays clearly has backfired but I don't know if there's a solution that satisfies everyone outside of gov't footing the bill a la public roads and calling it an economic multiplier. Because yes internet is a series of tubes and all but video sites are sending couches to everyone, making it FedEx's problem, and then acting shocked when FedEx wants paid for large item delivery.
Oh, I didn't realise the internet service in Korea is a public utility, so people don't need to subscribe to an ISP which installs/maintains the infrastructure.
If they did would it change the argument? You pay $50/mo bucks to send and receive packages and if you sent everyone in america a couch they would either stop doing business with you or charge you more.
Hackers for some reason really hate the "we charge a flat rate to everyone averaged across normal usage so almost everyone doesn't have to think about metering but then charge outliers more" pricing model. It works the same for roads, once you're driving semis the price goes up. XPO doesn't go "well we shouldn't have to pay for our road damage because the stuff we deliver is requested by our customer."
Comments
I wonder what the relevant law says. Forcing a non-essential website to host and stream video content feels strange to say the least, especially given that streaming software like OBS can easily record the video locally to be uploaded to YouTube, AfreecaTV or whatever.
If it's deemed essential then the ISPs shouldn't be able to extort and extract profits from both sides of the pipe.
Also wonder why Twitch didn't provide the numbers given that they have already publicly said that the costs are high.
All web service operators including Twitch have signed an NDA about their cost of data transfer. But there are some estimations. 50-90 billions in KRW per year (from a financial report by Daishin Securities)
I'm surprised contract law allows you to obscure your own operations from the state. That doesn't sound right.
Non essential doesn’t play into it. If you’re in a regulated industry and there’s conditions - be it airwave spectrum, minimal service criteria or something else, you have to operate within those conditions.
“Regulated industry” is doing a lot of the heavy lifting there for a video game streaming service.
There’s a lot of countries and they all have different rules. Twitch likely isn’t regulated as a video game streaming service in most of them because there’s no reason for countries to create specialized rubles around video game streaming vs use some other more generic rules.
Companies really should consult lawyers when expanding to a new country.
Do you know if twitch is regulated in SK? Or is this just an aside?
They decided to stop their business in Korea due to unreasonable networking fees. It was discussed here some months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38539167
Korea is fining them. Presumably they have some regulatory basis, and it isnt just a shakedown with no attempt at justification.
Often the rules that require things of a company have penalties for non-compliance.
Those penalties don't always have exemptions for stopping service. In fact it might have the opposite to avoid trying to put political pressure by doing that.
Doesn't mean it is a regulated industry which is actually a very narrow term.
Remember you are generally required to follow regulations to collect sales tax which covers almost every company. That doesn't mean you are a regulated industry.
What is a regulated industry? I'm not aware of it as a legal term. Basically all industries are regulated in my understanding to a greater or lesser degree. Even in a lesser one, you can run up against those regs
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/regul...
Medicine is a regulated industry. You can’t work as a doctor without an MD and good standing with the local licensing agency.
Banking is a regulated industry. You can’t start a bank without first asking permission. Your employees are held to higher standards than other industries, and with criminal repercussions for intentional or negligent violations.
Etc.
Not a very operational definition. You can't start a hot dog stand without permission either.
That’s because restaurants are, believe it or not, also a regulated industry.
Per that definition, there are no unregulated industries. This seems contrary the the argument that regulated industry is a "very narrow" term, and the regulations on twitch in SK obviously don't count
You should go reread the conversation as your response indicates that you misunderstand the person you are replying to, suggesting that you didn't follow the thread very closely.
Summarizing the salient bits here:
So, from the top: some industries are regulated. But, oh, not all industries which are subject to regulation are what we would call "regulated industries" -- that's "a very narrow term."
Great! What exactly is the definition of that very narrow term?
The immediate response to that inquiry was several supposed examples of "regulated industries".
But that's not a satisfactory response, because it doesn't generalize. For instance, a hot dog stand is subject to regulation ("you can't start a hot dog stand without permission either") -- but is it a so called "regulated industry" (which, remember, "is actually a very narrow term")?
And then we have your response:
The sarcasm is cheeky, but it still doesn't provide a meaningful answer to the original question: if not all industries which are regulated are "regulated industries", then what exactly does "regulated industry" mean?
So, a couple questions for you:
1) How do you know that restaurants fit the original commentator's definition of "regulated industry"? Were you told that restaurants are among the set of "regulated industries", which you've accepted without understanding why?
2) If you actually do know what makes restaurants a "regulated industry" (not merely just regulated), why not share the definition?
3) Alternatively, could it be that neither of the first two question apply: you made your comment without first comprehending the conversation?
Urm, you're the one that's not paying attention here.
The definition was provided by linking to the description on the Cambridge dictionary.
The examples were likely provided because it's often easier to understand a definition with additional examples.
Here's that Cambridge dictionary definition:
And here's the comment that kicked off this sub-thread:
So a regulated industry is a type of business that is controlled by government rules, but (per the aforementioned comment) not all businesses which are controlled by government rules are regulated industries.
So, again, I think the response of
is a bizarre blend of unhelpful and rude.
Perhaps you and I will just have to agree to disagree on that point.
“Regulated industry” is something very specific and different from general commerce regulation.
Banks are regulated industry. If you want to start a bank you have to submit your business plan to regulators for approval, and then operate within very strict rules with criminal penalties for intentional deviation, and government inspectors who come by to make sure everything is by the book.
Twitch, a video game streaming service, being regulated in the way investment banks and nuclear power stations are regulated is a weird claim to make.
Telecommunications is generally a regulated industry in most countries, as is broadcast media
You are literally responding to an article that explicitly says Twitch was fined by the regulatory body in charge of telecommunications, not a "general commerce [regulator]"
Telecommunications (e.g. the FCC) is a general commerce regulator.
The FCC is uninvolved with this case.
Korea is very good at recreating things better. Introducing Samsung stream..
I'm confused—it very obviously is regulated, hence why we're discussing this at all. What do you mean?
adastra22 means that given the relatively unimportant nature of the industry (video game streaming), you'd expect regulations to be light.
Afaict this is "you're in a regulated industry [whether or not it should be is irrelevant] but you're also not allowed to cease operation or leave that regulated industry, or you'll be subject to fines".
Honestly it's one of the better systems for dealing with the "we aren't going to comply with the law, we'll just leave" (for some definition of leave) problem. If you try to pull this trick without pulling all of your business out of SK (i.e. Amazon) they can still collect the fine.
Probably cuts down on the performative exits >.> Facebook in the EU, in an attempt to bully regulators.
Sender pays clearly has backfired but I don't know if there's a solution that satisfies everyone outside of gov't footing the bill a la public roads and calling it an economic multiplier. Because yes internet is a series of tubes and all but video sites are sending couches to everyone, making it FedEx's problem, and then acting shocked when FedEx wants paid for large item delivery.
Oh, I didn't realise the internet service in Korea is a public utility, so people don't need to subscribe to an ISP which installs/maintains the infrastructure.
Or is that my misunderstanding something?
Users don't subscribe to FedEx in order to receive packages through them.
If they did would it change the argument? You pay $50/mo bucks to send and receive packages and if you sent everyone in america a couch they would either stop doing business with you or charge you more.
Hackers for some reason really hate the "we charge a flat rate to everyone averaged across normal usage so almost everyone doesn't have to think about metering but then charge outliers more" pricing model. It works the same for roads, once you're driving semis the price goes up. XPO doesn't go "well we shouldn't have to pay for our road damage because the stuff we deliver is requested by our customer."
That is just reiterating the fact that you have to deal with reality and consequences.
That doesn't say anything about if those consequences are good, bad, or moral.