> As I see it, women are put off by “brogrammer” for two reasons. Some women would say that dichotomy of “programmer” and “frat bro” leaves women out altogether. If you’re not a nerdy boy or a brogrammer, where do you fit in? Others see the brogrammer meme as taking the most “masculine” aspects of the discipline and emphasizing them (think chugging Red Bull, pumping iron, eating steak and “getting” women). Is this really what we should be doing when women are already so underrepresented?
I think the author is misreading the entire "movement" by first assuming the false dichotomy she stated, that I've quoted above: that computer science is for the two exclusive groups of "nerdy boys" and "brogrammers". First, the entire meme is mostly satire making fun of bros. Because, hey, easy targets, right?
Second, whatever serious brogrammers there are isn't out of nerdy guys coming out of the woodwork and embracing a culture of bro-ing. I know and socialize with a fair number of self-proclaimed "bros". Whatever non-satire based brogrammers exist, they come from a realization on the part of the bros-who-formerly-did-not-program --- that programming is a useful skill. So a lot of bros who previously took Econ classes and lined up for the investment banking recruiting sessions are now learning how to program and spending more time in the CS department.
I don't think this is something to be "offended" by. If what you're offended by is bro-culture (and yes, I will be the first to say that there are sometimes troubling things about a frat-culture that sometimes objectifies women --- the "brogramming" session cited where recruiters were trumpeting the existence of naked women at parties _is_ offensive.), then decry those bros that _do_ do things that marginalize various groups. But there are plenty of bros who do nothing worse than consume copious amounts of alcohol on friday night, play games of beerpong late into the night, wear popped collars, get excessive tans and lift a lot of weights (which is how I've met most of my bro friends, seeing as I do find some of those activities pleasurable). It's not all Mike-The-Situation out here, and you can empirically verify this fact by walking down Walnut Street on a Friday Night as the frat parties are in session.
But as a computer scientist who has all too often seen too many groups excluded from this beautiful subject --- I'm mostly troubled by this blogpost --- as it is an attempt to marginalize a group of different people (bros) who seem to have taken to learning more computer science. I want more bros in computer science. more women, more goths, more emos, more whatever-stereotype you have in mind. And if they want to brogram, let them.
Nice point. I, too, think that CS stands to benefit from more diversity, of all kinds.
I find it interesting that you assumed that by "some women" I meant "me." These are not actually my views, exactly, on brogramming. If I were the only woman in the world, I wouldn't consider "brogrammer" offense. I agree--most of them are pretty harmless. Blah blah red bull.
But there ARE a significant number of women who ARE offended. And I don't think that you, or me, or anyone else, should tell them to not be offended by it. We haven't had their experiences, you know? Even as a woman in tech, I don't understand the full range of female experiences and perceptions.
1. Bros be bro-ing, with alcohol and weights. (not sexist)
2. Bros decide to program, bringing with them their bro-baggage (not sexist).
3. This becomes a meme: brogramming (not sexist).
4. Douchebag recruiters capitalize on latest meme in sleazy fashion, advertising "naked women" (definitely sexist).
5. Some women (ok, more than just you) and all reasonable persons are (rightfully) outraged at that blatant display of sexism.
I still don't seen anything offensive about brogramming itself --- insofar as brogramming consists of bros who like to program. If assholes are going to make sexist remarks/be sexist, you are entirely justified in calling them out for those vile acts, and I will happily join you in doing so. But your blogpost reads like a witchhunt against bros for... being bros.
If this were a field where professionals roughly mirrored the population at large, I wouldn't have much of a problem with brogramming. But that's far from the truth. So I am pretty happy to take issue with anything that reinforces the notion that programming is for guys.
Also, I think you're a little hasty to suggest that bro-ing has absolutely nothing sexist about it. Consider, for example, Time's photoessay "A Brief History of Bro Culture":
Comments
> As I see it, women are put off by “brogrammer” for two reasons. Some women would say that dichotomy of “programmer” and “frat bro” leaves women out altogether. If you’re not a nerdy boy or a brogrammer, where do you fit in? Others see the brogrammer meme as taking the most “masculine” aspects of the discipline and emphasizing them (think chugging Red Bull, pumping iron, eating steak and “getting” women). Is this really what we should be doing when women are already so underrepresented?
I think the author is misreading the entire "movement" by first assuming the false dichotomy she stated, that I've quoted above: that computer science is for the two exclusive groups of "nerdy boys" and "brogrammers". First, the entire meme is mostly satire making fun of bros. Because, hey, easy targets, right?
Second, whatever serious brogrammers there are isn't out of nerdy guys coming out of the woodwork and embracing a culture of bro-ing. I know and socialize with a fair number of self-proclaimed "bros". Whatever non-satire based brogrammers exist, they come from a realization on the part of the bros-who-formerly-did-not-program --- that programming is a useful skill. So a lot of bros who previously took Econ classes and lined up for the investment banking recruiting sessions are now learning how to program and spending more time in the CS department.
I don't think this is something to be "offended" by. If what you're offended by is bro-culture (and yes, I will be the first to say that there are sometimes troubling things about a frat-culture that sometimes objectifies women --- the "brogramming" session cited where recruiters were trumpeting the existence of naked women at parties _is_ offensive.), then decry those bros that _do_ do things that marginalize various groups. But there are plenty of bros who do nothing worse than consume copious amounts of alcohol on friday night, play games of beerpong late into the night, wear popped collars, get excessive tans and lift a lot of weights (which is how I've met most of my bro friends, seeing as I do find some of those activities pleasurable). It's not all Mike-The-Situation out here, and you can empirically verify this fact by walking down Walnut Street on a Friday Night as the frat parties are in session.
But as a computer scientist who has all too often seen too many groups excluded from this beautiful subject --- I'm mostly troubled by this blogpost --- as it is an attempt to marginalize a group of different people (bros) who seem to have taken to learning more computer science. I want more bros in computer science. more women, more goths, more emos, more whatever-stereotype you have in mind. And if they want to brogram, let them.
Nice point. I, too, think that CS stands to benefit from more diversity, of all kinds.
I find it interesting that you assumed that by "some women" I meant "me." These are not actually my views, exactly, on brogramming. If I were the only woman in the world, I wouldn't consider "brogrammer" offense. I agree--most of them are pretty harmless. Blah blah red bull.
But there ARE a significant number of women who ARE offended. And I don't think that you, or me, or anyone else, should tell them to not be offended by it. We haven't had their experiences, you know? Even as a woman in tech, I don't understand the full range of female experiences and perceptions.
I stand by my point that your ire is misdirected.
Here's how I see it:
1. Bros be bro-ing, with alcohol and weights. (not sexist)
2. Bros decide to program, bringing with them their bro-baggage (not sexist).
3. This becomes a meme: brogramming (not sexist).
4. Douchebag recruiters capitalize on latest meme in sleazy fashion, advertising "naked women" (definitely sexist).
5. Some women (ok, more than just you) and all reasonable persons are (rightfully) outraged at that blatant display of sexism.
I still don't seen anything offensive about brogramming itself --- insofar as brogramming consists of bros who like to program. If assholes are going to make sexist remarks/be sexist, you are entirely justified in calling them out for those vile acts, and I will happily join you in doing so. But your blogpost reads like a witchhunt against bros for... being bros.
If this were a field where professionals roughly mirrored the population at large, I wouldn't have much of a problem with brogramming. But that's far from the truth. So I am pretty happy to take issue with anything that reinforces the notion that programming is for guys.
Also, I think you're a little hasty to suggest that bro-ing has absolutely nothing sexist about it. Consider, for example, Time's photoessay "A Brief History of Bro Culture":
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1997965,00.htm...
The subtitle? "Beer and babes, a timeline of bros gone wild". That sounds like objectifying women to me.
Or look at the urban dictionary entries on bro:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro
There's quite a lot there about chicks, homophobia, women as targets, etc. And you see the same themes cropping up in other bro-related media.