Perhaps it sounded like I was defending deletionism, but I meant to do the opposite. I was trying to say we lack the appropriate tools and policies. This is a huge problem. Zed is right to be exercised, even enraged about it.
As someone who thinks about this problem all day, and who works with people who think about this problem all day, I resent the implication that I'm part of a deletionist conspiracy. This is the polar opposite of what everybody at the WMF that I know is trying to do.
However, as I pointed out, there also are constraints on what the central organization can do (or ought to do). We need more people willing to fight these negative tendencies in the community, to set new norms and policies.
I understand that Zed and others may feel it's a bit weird to give money to the WMF because of the good parts of Wikipedia, but then for the WMF not to take responsibility for the bad. It's a strange relationship, for sure -- really the WMF just keeps the lights on, and maintains the software, and the community writes the encyclopedia. The community, for its part, doesn't want to be taken over by some central administration either. But the WMF can allocate resources. (My feeling is you'll see more and more resources allocated specifically to combat these usability and community interaction problems.)
In the meantime, I don't feel bad for calling attention to the ways that others can help out.
> Lastly, don't give into Zed's crazy alpha-male hierarchy dominance thing.
You're right. I got angry and did not represent my point well. I apologize to HN.
I've talked to a few people who work at WMF (mainly at SxSWi last year) about deletionism and the WMF, and i definitely distinguish between the policies, the contributors implementing them and the WMF. My main point in discussing the issue was simply to explain why i thought your previous post was on the disingenuous side.
What i don't see a lot of, either though, is discussion about what are alternative models that can avoid conflicts like this that flair up. So it's mainly just two groups of people who are angry at each other and shouting, rather than a meaningful discussion either about the way that wikipedia functions, or about the particular subject matter being administrated.
Does the WMF have a blog, mailing list, or some sort of place where technical stuff, or things about how tools interact w/ the community are discussed?
Additionally, i think that it is definitely possible for 3rd parties to look at wikipedia and things that can be done to improve it from the outside, and that the WMF could encourage them both actively and passively (i know you guys have done a bunch of things like providing dumps of wikipedia and api access and all that).
Does the WMF have (code) contests to achieve/highlight goals they have for Wikipedia? If so i'm not aware of them.
Wikipedia provides a lot of opportunities. I'm sure being inside the WMF does too. Would love to know more about it.
Does the WMF have a blog, mailing list, or some sort of place where technical stuff, or things about how tools interact w/ the community are discussed?
I don't know. That's a good question. It's sort of in everything we do as a subtext, but not as the theme of a blog or mailing list.
Comments
> The idea of deletionism ...
Perhaps it sounded like I was defending deletionism, but I meant to do the opposite. I was trying to say we lack the appropriate tools and policies. This is a huge problem. Zed is right to be exercised, even enraged about it.
As someone who thinks about this problem all day, and who works with people who think about this problem all day, I resent the implication that I'm part of a deletionist conspiracy. This is the polar opposite of what everybody at the WMF that I know is trying to do.
However, as I pointed out, there also are constraints on what the central organization can do (or ought to do). We need more people willing to fight these negative tendencies in the community, to set new norms and policies.
I understand that Zed and others may feel it's a bit weird to give money to the WMF because of the good parts of Wikipedia, but then for the WMF not to take responsibility for the bad. It's a strange relationship, for sure -- really the WMF just keeps the lights on, and maintains the software, and the community writes the encyclopedia. The community, for its part, doesn't want to be taken over by some central administration either. But the WMF can allocate resources. (My feeling is you'll see more and more resources allocated specifically to combat these usability and community interaction problems.)
In the meantime, I don't feel bad for calling attention to the ways that others can help out.
> Lastly, don't give into Zed's crazy alpha-male hierarchy dominance thing.
You're right. I got angry and did not represent my point well. I apologize to HN.
Neil,
I've talked to a few people who work at WMF (mainly at SxSWi last year) about deletionism and the WMF, and i definitely distinguish between the policies, the contributors implementing them and the WMF. My main point in discussing the issue was simply to explain why i thought your previous post was on the disingenuous side.
What i don't see a lot of, either though, is discussion about what are alternative models that can avoid conflicts like this that flair up. So it's mainly just two groups of people who are angry at each other and shouting, rather than a meaningful discussion either about the way that wikipedia functions, or about the particular subject matter being administrated.
Does the WMF have a blog, mailing list, or some sort of place where technical stuff, or things about how tools interact w/ the community are discussed?
Additionally, i think that it is definitely possible for 3rd parties to look at wikipedia and things that can be done to improve it from the outside, and that the WMF could encourage them both actively and passively (i know you guys have done a bunch of things like providing dumps of wikipedia and api access and all that).
Does the WMF have (code) contests to achieve/highlight goals they have for Wikipedia? If so i'm not aware of them.
Wikipedia provides a lot of opportunities. I'm sure being inside the WMF does too. Would love to know more about it.
Does the WMF have a blog, mailing list, or some sort of place where technical stuff, or things about how tools interact w/ the community are discussed?
I don't know. That's a good question. It's sort of in everything we do as a subtext, but not as the theme of a blog or mailing list.
I will try to get answers for your questions.