I wonder, why are they doing this? I mean, the reason tech companies go to Israel is because there's an enormous concentration of talent there. Why would they go to Palestine? I don't think there's any talent there. Is this a humanitarian thing?
I'd be happy to hear first-hand experiences from people who worked with Palestinian developers or with software produced by Palestinian developers.
(I'm a googler, but I didn't cut this deal , so I can't speak to the deal teams)
I was just in jordan and met a number of Palestinians (expat and visiting from the region) and I can only say that they seemed as technical as any hacker I've met in Cambridge or in the Valley. (this means that I met people as smart and as inexperienced as I've met in those places too)
They work under what we'd consider tougher conditions (less reliable power and rough and tumble internet connections) but that doesn't keep people from experimenting and learning.
As a funny side note, do you know what SICP sells for in Jordan? 11$! (the jd is pegged to the us currency)
1. I never knew a Palestinian developer on any mailing list or other forum.
2. I never knew of any software or technological product developed in Palestine.
3. I never knew of any notable developer or software developed in ANY of the Muslim states in the middle east, and that's a huge evidence given that there are >100 million Muslims there.
My name is Mahmoud Al-Qudsi, and I'm currently living in Jordan and I studied in Palestine. You've probably seen me here a lot :)
I run NeoSmart Technologies at http://neosmart.net/ which develops software used by tens of millions of people (for free). I also have a full time position as the Senior Software Architect at Genie-Soft (http://genie-soft.com), which is in the top 5 backup software companies around the globe, makes millions a year, and is headquartered in Jordan.
I've contributed to many open source projects, including WordPress and Ubuntu. I've collaborated with people from across the world of all faiths and cultural origins, without bias, and don't consider myself to be any "better" or smarter (or any worse, for that mater) than anyone else by virtue of my religion, language, or culture.
I never felt the need to shout out that I'm from Palestine because I figured no one cares where people are from, only what they can and have accomplished. Perhaps it is not incorrect to be overt about ones origins, in hopes of dispelling myths perpetrated by comments like yours. Please note, I'm not attacking, only lamenting...
Looks good, I'll be checking out the NeoSmart stuff.
The question is if there are more people like you there. I think you can find a good programmer in any region, but there needs to be a good amount of them in order to create something substantial. So I am yet to be convinced that it's a myth that there's a low amount of talent in Palestine.
Talent is another word for potential - it's there, but it's not necessarily showing. I know it is hard for anyone living in comfort to truly imagine living in the Middle East, with all the conflict, oppressive regimes, and limitations that are around. I can afford the 800 dollars a year for ADSL 2mbps internet (with a 10GB per month download limitation), but not everyone here can. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a PC at home (or even at school) they can learn to hack on while they are young.
You cannot judge a people to be "talentless" without taking in the context. And you cannot/must not ignore the context in this case. It is not these peoples' fault that they are unable to start the next facebook/twitter/whatever, you have no idea how difficult it was for me to accomplish what I did here. People here will put the same amount of effort as yourself, if not more, and not succeed simply because of the environment they are in.. it takes a lot of work to break away from the layers of obstacles in the way and makes something that can be appreciated by people like yourself.
In answer to your question: Yes, there are. Everyone at Genie-Soft is a talented hacker. I've met dozens of hackers at tech meetups and at conventions sponsored by Google and Microsoft. If you're predisposed to not see these people though, they are easy to miss.
I think you should apologise and hang your head in shame! It is simply abhorrent to reason to hear comments such as... x region has no talent, especially in the context of religion, culture or race!
I am sure they exist, but the fact I didn't hear of any cool ones says a lot. I never see a cool "Show HN" start-up which is from the Muslim middle-east.
And to remind you, we are talking about the entire Muslim middle-east here, with >100 million people who live in relative wealth and comfort. But Google is investing in Palestine, who are only a few millions who live in poverty and danger.
> I am sure they exist, but the fact I didn't hear of any cool ones says a lot. I never see a cool "Show HN" start-up which is from the Muslim middle-east.
I'll bet you haven't heard from a lot of developers in Bangladesh either but they exist and are quite active. In their market, which HN is hardly a part of.
> But Google is investing in Palestine, who are only a few millions who live in poverty and danger.
Which makes it extra worthwhile, as a 'leveler' it has much bigger effect this way than it would have elsewhere.
The issue is one of awareness. Many of them found themselves abroad, mostly out of necessity, which is why you might not be familiar with their heritage. Or there might be other reasons where you don't interface with them.
To address your third point and name a few notable hackers of mideast and/or muslim heritage that come to mind off the top of my head that you might be familiar with, please see the list below. You likely use all these guys' hacks daily, so the contribution is definitely there. :)
- there are many others, some famous and some nameless - hacking away - in all aspects of technology, medicine, science, etc. but you might not necessarily recognize them as being from that part of the world. Maybe even a coworker...
I hope that alters your perspective - at least somewhat - on the middle east, it's talent and it's role in hacker culture.
I remember seeing Gamezer[1] on Google Trends 2010[2] and being surprised. It really struck a cord that I hadn't heard of a game/game company that was a top 10 google trend keyword. It's top regional is Palestine.
The big Muslim countries in the middle east are kind of fucked one way or another. Iraq and Iran alone have more than 100 million of the Muslims in the area. You're not going to see a lot of hot startup action from war zones or autocratic regimes. Jordan is one of the most stable and open societies in the Middle East. A year ago, I worked with some programmers from Oman, and they were pretty good.
Dehumanising 'others' allows people to do unjust acts with a clear conscience. The flimsy anecdotal evidence you gave as the basis for your dismissal of the Palestinian people suggests to me that you are not so clever or talented as you may think.
Israel also has military control over the Negev (Southern District). Few would say that Israel 'occupies' that region -- just like England doesn't 'occupy' Sussex.
I have no opinion about what to do with the West Bank, but by saying that it is 'occupied' by Israel, I feel you're implying that Israel's presence there is unjustified.
The people of Sussex have long felt themselves to belong to the English nation.
Israel captured the West bank in a war. I doubt that the population of the west bank will ever be assimilated and become patriotic Israelis. Religion, let alone nationalism, guarantees this I'd say. Israel (and the US) will eventually tire of having to use the army to control the population.
Eventually Israel will have to give it up imo
Israel captured it from Jordan in 1967, which had taken it in 1948. Jordan's occupance was recognized by practically noone. Up until that time, it had been part of the British Mandate of 1922, which was an international effort to create a Jewish state.
"The territory now known as the West Bank was a part of the British Mandate of Palestine entrusted to the United Kingdom by the League of Nations after World War I. The terms of the Mandate called for the creation in Palestine of a Jewish national home without prejudicing the civil and religious rights of the non-Jewish population of Palestine. During that time the area was called by the historic names of its two regions -- Judea and Samaria." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_bank#History
"Judea (from the Hebrew: יהודה, "Tribe of Judah") was the name of the mountainous southern part of the historic Land of Israel." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea
"Samaria (Hebrew: שֹׁמְרוֹן) is a term used for a mountainous region roughly corresponding to the northern part of the West Bank. [..] "Samaria" derives from an ancient city of the same name, which was located near the south of Samaria, and was the capital of the Kingdom of Israel." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samari
Furthermore, isn't the article about Gaza at least partially also, and, isn't Gaza some sort of prison? Finally, is Israel not actually occupying these territories? I mean, is West Bank Israel and by the same token is Gaza Israel too?
Jordan took the West Bank when the British Mandate was terminated. The international community had designated it to become part of the Jewish National Home. This is also why practically noone acknowledged Jordan's rule of the West Bank. Before 1946, Jordan itself was part of the British Mandate. It was separated to create a country where Arabs from the region could live, whereas Palestine would become the Jewish National Home. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine#Te...
I don't think using ancient history, however well recorded it is or isn't is a good way to decide who owns what. We all came from somewhere else if you go back far enough. The Jews aren't the only ones with historical links to Palestine. It's not just ludicrous it's evil to suggest that white Europeans or Black Ethiopians on the basis of their religion or part of their racial heritage have more right to the territory of Palestine than Palestinians do.
My point is that it's unclear to whom the land belongs. By saying that Israel 'occupies' the region it seems like you've already decided.
Jews, Christians and Muslims all have their roots in the region. I believe they should all be able to live there, with a government that respects all faiths. For devout Christians and Jews, it's very difficult to live in Middle Eastern countries other than Israel.
Furthermore, you seem to use the term 'palestinian' as meaning a people originating in the region but different from Middle Eastern Jews and Christians. In reality, to be Palestinian is to have genetic roots in the Levant, it has nothing to do with religion. Many Jews and Orthodox Christians are Palestinians too.
Do you have similar doubts as to the ownership of Israel?
I think it's pretty clear that the West Bank belongs to the people who live there, the people commonly referred to as the Palestinians. It certainly shouldn't belong to the people living next door in Israel or to whomever they allow under the protection of Israeli military force to establish settlements there.
So the people who left Israel in 1948 and who now live with their descendants in refugee camps in Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank are free to return to Israel?
What percentage of the population of the West Bank were Jewish in 1967? The proper term for what's going on is colonisation or perhaps plantation.
If you're correct about the the majority of the West Bank population being there for less than 3 generations, then I can give you 2 reasons for this.
1: The former residents of that part of Palestine that became Israel who upon the formation of the state moved to the West Bank.
2: The increase in the Jewish population.
First you reject my data as 'ancient history', then you come up with your own arbitrary points in time to measure who should be allowed to live in the region. With that, your definition of the term 'palestinian', and your characterization of Jewish presence as 'occupation' and 'plantation', it's become clear where you stand. You think Jews and Christians have no right to live in the Middle East, and that leaves us with nothing to discuss.
Who do you think you are, Sigmund Freud?
Of course Jews and Christians have a right to live in the Middle East. I hope you are not an Israeli and if you are that you belong to the lunatic fringe.
Comments
I wonder, why are they doing this? I mean, the reason tech companies go to Israel is because there's an enormous concentration of talent there. Why would they go to Palestine? I don't think there's any talent there. Is this a humanitarian thing?
I'd be happy to hear first-hand experiences from people who worked with Palestinian developers or with software produced by Palestinian developers.
(I'm a googler, but I didn't cut this deal , so I can't speak to the deal teams)
I was just in jordan and met a number of Palestinians (expat and visiting from the region) and I can only say that they seemed as technical as any hacker I've met in Cambridge or in the Valley. (this means that I met people as smart and as inexperienced as I've met in those places too)
They work under what we'd consider tougher conditions (less reliable power and rough and tumble internet connections) but that doesn't keep people from experimenting and learning.
As a funny side note, do you know what SICP sells for in Jordan? 11$! (the jd is pegged to the us currency)
Interesting, thanks!
I wonder, why do you think there's no talent there? Do you think Google would have done some due diligence before hand?
I think there's no talent there because:
1. I never knew a Palestinian developer on any mailing list or other forum.
2. I never knew of any software or technological product developed in Palestine.
3. I never knew of any notable developer or software developed in ANY of the Muslim states in the middle east, and that's a huge evidence given that there are >100 million Muslims there.
Hi.
My name is Mahmoud Al-Qudsi, and I'm currently living in Jordan and I studied in Palestine. You've probably seen me here a lot :)
I run NeoSmart Technologies at http://neosmart.net/ which develops software used by tens of millions of people (for free). I also have a full time position as the Senior Software Architect at Genie-Soft (http://genie-soft.com), which is in the top 5 backup software companies around the globe, makes millions a year, and is headquartered in Jordan.
I've contributed to many open source projects, including WordPress and Ubuntu. I've collaborated with people from across the world of all faiths and cultural origins, without bias, and don't consider myself to be any "better" or smarter (or any worse, for that mater) than anyone else by virtue of my religion, language, or culture.
I never felt the need to shout out that I'm from Palestine because I figured no one cares where people are from, only what they can and have accomplished. Perhaps it is not incorrect to be overt about ones origins, in hopes of dispelling myths perpetrated by comments like yours. Please note, I'm not attacking, only lamenting...
Looks good, I'll be checking out the NeoSmart stuff.
The question is if there are more people like you there. I think you can find a good programmer in any region, but there needs to be a good amount of them in order to create something substantial. So I am yet to be convinced that it's a myth that there's a low amount of talent in Palestine.
Talent is another word for potential - it's there, but it's not necessarily showing. I know it is hard for anyone living in comfort to truly imagine living in the Middle East, with all the conflict, oppressive regimes, and limitations that are around. I can afford the 800 dollars a year for ADSL 2mbps internet (with a 10GB per month download limitation), but not everyone here can. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a PC at home (or even at school) they can learn to hack on while they are young.
You cannot judge a people to be "talentless" without taking in the context. And you cannot/must not ignore the context in this case. It is not these peoples' fault that they are unable to start the next facebook/twitter/whatever, you have no idea how difficult it was for me to accomplish what I did here. People here will put the same amount of effort as yourself, if not more, and not succeed simply because of the environment they are in.. it takes a lot of work to break away from the layers of obstacles in the way and makes something that can be appreciated by people like yourself.
In answer to your question: Yes, there are. Everyone at Genie-Soft is a talented hacker. I've met dozens of hackers at tech meetups and at conventions sponsored by Google and Microsoft. If you're predisposed to not see these people though, they are easy to miss.
I think you should apologise and hang your head in shame! It is simply abhorrent to reason to hear comments such as... x region has no talent, especially in the context of religion, culture or race!
Maybe you're just not looking hard enough: http://arabcrunch.com/
Indeed http://www.startuparabia.com/navigate/countries/palestine/
I am sure they exist, but the fact I didn't hear of any cool ones says a lot. I never see a cool "Show HN" start-up which is from the Muslim middle-east.
And to remind you, we are talking about the entire Muslim middle-east here, with >100 million people who live in relative wealth and comfort. But Google is investing in Palestine, who are only a few millions who live in poverty and danger.
> I am sure they exist, but the fact I didn't hear of any cool ones says a lot. I never see a cool "Show HN" start-up which is from the Muslim middle-east.
I'll bet you haven't heard from a lot of developers in Bangladesh either but they exist and are quite active. In their market, which HN is hardly a part of.
> But Google is investing in Palestine, who are only a few millions who live in poverty and danger.
Which makes it extra worthwhile, as a 'leveler' it has much bigger effect this way than it would have elsewhere.
The issue is one of awareness. Many of them found themselves abroad, mostly out of necessity, which is why you might not be familiar with their heritage. Or there might be other reasons where you don't interface with them.
To address your third point and name a few notable hackers of mideast and/or muslim heritage that come to mind off the top of my head that you might be familiar with, please see the list below. You likely use all these guys' hacks daily, so the contribution is definitely there. :)
- co-founder of apple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs)
- founder of admob, omar hamoui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdMob)
- taher elgamal, a cryptographer who brought us encryption standards like DSA and SSL /HTTPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taher_Elgamal)
- in days past, al khawarizmi brought us algebra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Mūsā_al-Khwārizmī) In fact the word algebra originate from the Arabic al-jabr. So does the word algorithm, which is Latin for his name.
- there are many others, some famous and some nameless - hacking away - in all aspects of technology, medicine, science, etc. but you might not necessarily recognize them as being from that part of the world. Maybe even a coworker...
I hope that alters your perspective - at least somewhat - on the middle east, it's talent and it's role in hacker culture.
I remember seeing Gamezer[1] on Google Trends 2010[2] and being surprised. It really struck a cord that I hadn't heard of a game/game company that was a top 10 google trend keyword. It's top regional is Palestine.
[1] http://gamezer.com/
[2] http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/zeitgeist2010/ http://www.google.com/insights/search/#date=1%2F2010%2012m&#...
The big Muslim countries in the middle east are kind of fucked one way or another. Iraq and Iran alone have more than 100 million of the Muslims in the area. You're not going to see a lot of hot startup action from war zones or autocratic regimes. Jordan is one of the most stable and open societies in the Middle East. A year ago, I worked with some programmers from Oman, and they were pretty good.
Hmmm declaring the people of a territory you occupy to be less talented than your own people. Reminds me of something
That's a completely trollish comment.
Dehumanising 'others' allows people to do unjust acts with a clear conscience. The flimsy anecdotal evidence you gave as the basis for your dismissal of the Palestinian people suggests to me that you are not so clever or talented as you may think.
"a territory you occupy"
Last I heard, the jury was still out on whose land it is.
I don't have a fixed view on the issue of Palestine and Israel. Doesn't Israel have military control over the West Bank?
Israel also has military control over the Negev (Southern District). Few would say that Israel 'occupies' that region -- just like England doesn't 'occupy' Sussex.
I have no opinion about what to do with the West Bank, but by saying that it is 'occupied' by Israel, I feel you're implying that Israel's presence there is unjustified.
The people of Sussex have long felt themselves to belong to the English nation. Israel captured the West bank in a war. I doubt that the population of the west bank will ever be assimilated and become patriotic Israelis. Religion, let alone nationalism, guarantees this I'd say. Israel (and the US) will eventually tire of having to use the army to control the population. Eventually Israel will have to give it up imo
"Israel captured the West bank in a war."
Israel captured it from Jordan in 1967, which had taken it in 1948. Jordan's occupance was recognized by practically noone. Up until that time, it had been part of the British Mandate of 1922, which was an international effort to create a Jewish state.
"The territory now known as the West Bank was a part of the British Mandate of Palestine entrusted to the United Kingdom by the League of Nations after World War I. The terms of the Mandate called for the creation in Palestine of a Jewish national home without prejudicing the civil and religious rights of the non-Jewish population of Palestine. During that time the area was called by the historic names of its two regions -- Judea and Samaria." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_bank#History
"Judea (from the Hebrew: יהודה, "Tribe of Judah") was the name of the mountainous southern part of the historic Land of Israel." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea
"Samaria (Hebrew: שֹׁמְרוֹן) is a term used for a mountainous region roughly corresponding to the northern part of the West Bank. [..] "Samaria" derives from an ancient city of the same name, which was located near the south of Samaria, and was the capital of the Kingdom of Israel." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samari
Had taken it in 1948 from who?
Also, remind everyone, when was Israel created?
Furthermore, isn't the article about Gaza at least partially also, and, isn't Gaza some sort of prison? Finally, is Israel not actually occupying these territories? I mean, is West Bank Israel and by the same token is Gaza Israel too?
"Had taken it in 1948 from who?"
Jordan took the West Bank when the British Mandate was terminated. The international community had designated it to become part of the Jewish National Home. This is also why practically noone acknowledged Jordan's rule of the West Bank. Before 1946, Jordan itself was part of the British Mandate. It was separated to create a country where Arabs from the region could live, whereas Palestine would become the Jewish National Home. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine#Te...
"Also, remind everyone, when was Israel created?"
About 1000 BCE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_%28united_mon...
"isn't the article about Gaza at least partially also?"
Sure, and Gaza was part of the British Mandate as well. In 1922 it was designated to become part of the Jewish National Home. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gaza#British_Mandate...
I don't think using ancient history, however well recorded it is or isn't is a good way to decide who owns what. We all came from somewhere else if you go back far enough. The Jews aren't the only ones with historical links to Palestine. It's not just ludicrous it's evil to suggest that white Europeans or Black Ethiopians on the basis of their religion or part of their racial heritage have more right to the territory of Palestine than Palestinians do.
My point is that it's unclear to whom the land belongs. By saying that Israel 'occupies' the region it seems like you've already decided.
Jews, Christians and Muslims all have their roots in the region. I believe they should all be able to live there, with a government that respects all faiths. For devout Christians and Jews, it's very difficult to live in Middle Eastern countries other than Israel.
Furthermore, you seem to use the term 'palestinian' as meaning a people originating in the region but different from Middle Eastern Jews and Christians. In reality, to be Palestinian is to have genetic roots in the Levant, it has nothing to do with religion. Many Jews and Orthodox Christians are Palestinians too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#DNA_and_gene...
Do you have similar doubts as to the ownership of Israel?
I think it's pretty clear that the West Bank belongs to the people who live there, the people commonly referred to as the Palestinians. It certainly shouldn't belong to the people living next door in Israel or to whomever they allow under the protection of Israeli military force to establish settlements there.
"Do you have similar doubts as to the ownership of Israel?"
Israel is open to all, it has freedom of religion, a constitution, and elected officials. Compare that to the other countries in the Middle East.
"I think it's pretty clear that the West Bank belongs to the people who live there, the people commonly referred to as the Palestinians."
- One quarter of the people living in the West Bank are Jewish.
- The majority of all people living in the West Bank have lived there for less than three generations.
- We can't even agree on the definition of what a 'palestinian' is.
So the people who left Israel in 1948 and who now live with their descendants in refugee camps in Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank are free to return to Israel?
What percentage of the population of the West Bank were Jewish in 1967? The proper term for what's going on is colonisation or perhaps plantation.
If you're correct about the the majority of the West Bank population being there for less than 3 generations, then I can give you 2 reasons for this. 1: The former residents of that part of Palestine that became Israel who upon the formation of the state moved to the West Bank. 2: The increase in the Jewish population.
First you reject my data as 'ancient history', then you come up with your own arbitrary points in time to measure who should be allowed to live in the region. With that, your definition of the term 'palestinian', and your characterization of Jewish presence as 'occupation' and 'plantation', it's become clear where you stand. You think Jews and Christians have no right to live in the Middle East, and that leaves us with nothing to discuss.
Who do you think you are, Sigmund Freud? Of course Jews and Christians have a right to live in the Middle East. I hope you are not an Israeli and if you are that you belong to the lunatic fringe.