Actually the schools are mainly run by the UN. Parents can choose a Hamas school if they want though.
And everyday life is most certainly not hopeless for the average person. Why do you think that?
They are penned in though, and I'm certain that they hate that. But from a practical point of view it doesn't prevent much - lots of people never travel far from their home town.
If they wanted change in their worldview, they could. If they ever actually have have their perpetually delayed elections, we'll find out what they really want.
I'd consider it hopeless if I were there. Not many places on earth I'd be less excited about living than there.
As far as whether "they" could change.. awfully hard when you've got Israel on one side and Hamas on the other. Not much room for empowered moderate politics there. Hamas could change, sure.. but until they do, nobody without an army is going to change anything.
And the wikipedia text is very misleading, because it does not compare the data to other countries. For example nearly all woman during childbearing years are anemic, there is nothing unusual about gaza.
Infant mortality: (for comparison 49.4 is world average)
Are you implying that Israel has an interest in a radicalized Gaza? I would think that Israel wants moderate Gazans. Fatah, which is only moderate when compared to Hamas, was swept out of Gaza.
In a statement to the Israeli Parliament's (the Knesset) Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Monday February 12, 2007, Israeli Prime minister Ehud Olmert said "Netanyahu established Hamas, gave it life, freed Sheikh Yassin and gave him the opportunity to blossom".[4]
Since Israel claims that Hamas is a radical organization, that suggests that Israel has acted to radicalize Gaza. Whether that's in Israel's best interest is not for me to say though....
Olmert is a political opponent of Netanyahu. He's also about to get convicted of supposedly the most serious corruption charges in Israeli history. I wouldn't call him a paragon of credibility.
I know, but since there are a number of other sources that corroborate that account (see the Wikipedia link above), I think it is credible. Surely you don't claim that absolutely everything Olmert ever said is a lie, do you?
That's not really the whole story, and given that Hamas forcibly evicted the also-democratically-elected executive branch, I wouldn't exactly call their rule democratic.
For a typical Gazan, they're stuck with Hamas and Israel even if they'd rather not deal with either of them.
Um, I don't think Israel "pulled out of their occupation." I'm pretty sure that Gaza's borders are completely sealed by the Israeli military as is their airspace. There might not be Israeli soldiers inside Gaza, but the occupation continues as long as Israel maintains complete control over airspace and borders.
My hopes are irrelevant to the discussion. My point was that your claim is inaccurate. If you're unwilling to make factual claims, than maybe you shouldn't participate in this discussion. The world needs neither more ignorance nor more lies when discussing global conflicts.
The part about Israel ending its occupation. Removing soldiers from Gaza is insufficient to end the occupation. At least, according to the UN, Human Rights Watch, and scores of NGOs.
Your absolutist proclamations are a good example of what's wrong on all sides of the equation.
Israel is a victim to some extent, yeah. But until Israel ends the blockade of Gaza and lets them trade freely from their own coastline, they're still under occupation.
until Israel ends the blockade of Gaza and lets them trade freely from their own coastline, they're still under occupation
such a moronic statement on Hacker News, I'm shocked. Do you think trade is stifled just so people like you can shout demands at Israel, a country at war, from the sidelines?
I've been to Israel. I have several friends who've been participants in said war, up to and including firing their weapons and hurting/killing people. I've felt the irrational random fear on a public bus that makes a mockery of all the people who claim to be afraid of terror in America.
My statement stands. If you have nothing to say about it other than to call it "moronic", maybe you should try learning something yourself. Protip: War is not football, you don't pick a side and root, you hope that it ends so there will be less suffering.
Comments
Actually the schools are mainly run by the UN. Parents can choose a Hamas school if they want though.
And everyday life is most certainly not hopeless for the average person. Why do you think that?
They are penned in though, and I'm certain that they hate that. But from a practical point of view it doesn't prevent much - lots of people never travel far from their home town.
If they wanted change in their worldview, they could. If they ever actually have have their perpetually delayed elections, we'll find out what they really want.
I'd consider it hopeless if I were there. Not many places on earth I'd be less excited about living than there.
As far as whether "they" could change.. awfully hard when you've got Israel on one side and Hamas on the other. Not much room for empowered moderate politics there. Hamas could change, sure.. but until they do, nobody without an army is going to change anything.
> Not many places on earth I'd be less excited about living than there.
Really? They have among the highest life expectancies in the world, and all the health indexes (maternal death, infant mortality, etc) are very high.
I'd hate living in places like Rawanda much much more - actually pretty much anyplace in Africa, despite not being penned in.
But I could see why you'd hate living in a place controlled by Hamas though.
all the health indexes (maternal death, infant mortality, etc) are very high
That statement seems to contradict http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#Health ; can you cite any published data justifying your claims?
Tons.
And the wikipedia text is very misleading, because it does not compare the data to other countries. For example nearly all woman during childbearing years are anemic, there is nothing unusual about gaza.
Infant mortality: (for comparison 49.4 is world average)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...
It has one of the lowest death rates in the world:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...
You can check the rest of the numbers for yourself:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...
Well, different strokes for different folks. I'd take the increased freedom along with increased risk of disease, given the choice.
Are you implying that Israel has an interest in a radicalized Gaza? I would think that Israel wants moderate Gazans. Fatah, which is only moderate when compared to Hamas, was swept out of Gaza.
I think Israel has historically done a great deal to support Hamas. At least that's what the Israeli Prime Minister says ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas#Before_1987_.E... ):
In a statement to the Israeli Parliament's (the Knesset) Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Monday February 12, 2007, Israeli Prime minister Ehud Olmert said "Netanyahu established Hamas, gave it life, freed Sheikh Yassin and gave him the opportunity to blossom".[4]
Since Israel claims that Hamas is a radical organization, that suggests that Israel has acted to radicalize Gaza. Whether that's in Israel's best interest is not for me to say though....
Olmert is a political opponent of Netanyahu. He's also about to get convicted of supposedly the most serious corruption charges in Israeli history. I wouldn't call him a paragon of credibility.
I know, but since there are a number of other sources that corroborate that account (see the Wikipedia link above), I think it is credible. Surely you don't claim that absolutely everything Olmert ever said is a lie, do you?
Absolutely not. I think as a rule of thumb, people should present the most credible sources they can find.
No, I'm not implying that, and I said I'm not really into apportioning blame, that's a long conversation and there's more than enough to go around.
The net sum of Israel's policies have probably contributed to radicalization in Gaza, but that's more about incompetence than malice.
The Gazans voted in Hamas democratically and Israel pulled out of their occupation, if that's the name for it, and now the place is worse than ever.
That's not really the whole story, and given that Hamas forcibly evicted the also-democratically-elected executive branch, I wouldn't exactly call their rule democratic.
For a typical Gazan, they're stuck with Hamas and Israel even if they'd rather not deal with either of them.
Israel care more about the people of Gaza way more than Hamas. It's a real tragedy.
Um, I don't think Israel "pulled out of their occupation." I'm pretty sure that Gaza's borders are completely sealed by the Israeli military as is their airspace. There might not be Israeli soldiers inside Gaza, but the occupation continues as long as Israel maintains complete control over airspace and borders.
That's just too bad for Gaza. Hamas will have to learn how to stop firing rockets into Israel's airspace. What sort of borders were you hoping for?
My hopes are irrelevant to the discussion. My point was that your claim is inaccurate. If you're unwilling to make factual claims, than maybe you shouldn't participate in this discussion. The world needs neither more ignorance nor more lies when discussing global conflicts.
What parts are inaccurate, Michael?
The part about Israel ending its occupation. Removing soldiers from Gaza is insufficient to end the occupation. At least, according to the UN, Human Rights Watch, and scores of NGOs.
Those organizations are basically just inconsolable, fixated and merciless Israel-bashers. I don't buy into their rhetoric, and you shouldn't either.
The Israeli army said the Palestinians had stopped buying fuel in recent days after Hamas failed to pay its share of the costs.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100409/wl_mideast_afp/mideastc...
Israel is the victim, and it is far too accommodating with the murderers at her doorsteps.
Your absolutist proclamations are a good example of what's wrong on all sides of the equation.
Israel is a victim to some extent, yeah. But until Israel ends the blockade of Gaza and lets them trade freely from their own coastline, they're still under occupation.
until Israel ends the blockade of Gaza and lets them trade freely from their own coastline, they're still under occupation
such a moronic statement on Hacker News, I'm shocked. Do you think trade is stifled just so people like you can shout demands at Israel, a country at war, from the sidelines?
I've been to Israel. I have several friends who've been participants in said war, up to and including firing their weapons and hurting/killing people. I've felt the irrational random fear on a public bus that makes a mockery of all the people who claim to be afraid of terror in America.
My statement stands. If you have nothing to say about it other than to call it "moronic", maybe you should try learning something yourself. Protip: War is not football, you don't pick a side and root, you hope that it ends so there will be less suffering.
A moronic statement indeed, you "try learning something yourself," and you stop with "absolutist proclamations."
Tip: you end a war by winning, not losing. Loser.