There had been articles for a decade about the NSA and ECHELON, like [1]. I remember reading about the system in '99, in an (independent) Spanish hacking magazine.
I'm frankly still amazed at how many people here were just so flabbergasted. I thought it was public knowledge in this community.
It wasn't even an underground thing: the European Parliament had a report on it published in June 2001 [2].
There had been articles, but very little evidence.
Whether or not people believed in the extent of surveillance largely comes down to how cynical people were about the US government.
I remember having conversations with people all the time in the 80's and 90's who refused to believe it even when they were told about things that the US government openly admitted. A lot of people had a lot of trust in the US government. Partly I guess because before the fall of the Soviet Union, to a lot of people it was a black-and-white good vs evil thing. If the Soviet Union was evil, then the US had to be squeaky clean and flawless. It of course helped that most people had no access to the internet.
I'm not surprised it's taken this long, given how hard people try to hold on to their beliefs even in the face of evidence. The fact of the matter is that we had, and still have, very little evidence about this surveillance, which slows the process down even further.
I was born in 1988. I have no memory of the Soviet Union. I distinctly remember Clinton taking office however. I also remember all of the wars in the 90s amongst former USSR states, in some cases civil wars.
There is almost no way someone my age could believe the Soviet Union boogeyman theory, because it never really existed in our lifetime. Yet, people still seem to believe that the US government is somehow incorruptible.
Very little evidence? Not for anyone paying attention, there were leaks and snippets galore. It's what got me reading cryptome regularly because they were the best source of actual echelon/tempest documents...
Honestly, most people simply dont want to know. The problem with learning dirty truths is that for former "true beleivers", the truths can take a huge toll mentally. Even for a rational and logical person, the cognitive dissonance and compartmentalization that can be generated can be a large burden to work through.
> "...a massive blackmail operation against elected officials."
This is my pet hypothesis too, and it's rarely mentioned.
Most governments whose inner workings have been exposed to the Western public (Khmer Rouge, Nazis, Soviets to some degree, others) have had many factionalized, competing intelligence organizations, all keeping dossiers on one another's chiefs and on everyone else occupying a position of power. There's no reason to think that our own governments aren't doing the same thing.
It's not too hard to imagine eg. a red state Senator toeing the party line on NSA funding, black budgets, or whistleblower punishment because he knows the pictures of him smooching a guy are one @nsa.gov email away from the front page of the Atlanta Journal Constitution.
Organizations such as the Electronic Privacy Information Center and the Electronic Frontier Foundation challenged the Clipper chip proposal, saying that it would have the effect not only of subjecting citizens to increased and possibly illegal government surveillance, but that the strength of the Clipper chip's encryption could not be evaluated by the public, as its design was classified secret, and that therefore individuals and businesses might be hobbled with an insecure communications system. Further, it was pointed out that while American companies could be forced to use the Clipper chip in their encryption products, foreign companies could not, and presumably phones with strong data encryption would be manufactured abroad and spread throughout the world and into the United States, negating the point of the whole exercise, and, of course, materially damaging U.S. manufacturers en route. Then-Senators John Ashcroft and John Kerry were opponents of the Clipper chip proposal, arguing in favor of the individual's right to encrypt messages and export encryption software.
The release and development of several strong cryptographic software packages such as Nautilus, PGP and PGPfone was in response to the government push for the Clipper chip. The thinking was that if strong cryptography was freely available on the internet as an alternative, the government would be unable to stop its use.
Here's a photo that Tom Jennings took of some graffiti I left in South Park (next to Wired's office) in San Francisco around 1994:
Comments
There had been articles for a decade about the NSA and ECHELON, like [1]. I remember reading about the system in '99, in an (independent) Spanish hacking magazine.
I'm frankly still amazed at how many people here were just so flabbergasted. I thought it was public knowledge in this community.
It wasn't even an underground thing: the European Parliament had a report on it published in June 2001 [2].
[1] http://www.duncancampbell.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/n...
[2] http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//...
There had been articles, but very little evidence.
Whether or not people believed in the extent of surveillance largely comes down to how cynical people were about the US government.
I remember having conversations with people all the time in the 80's and 90's who refused to believe it even when they were told about things that the US government openly admitted. A lot of people had a lot of trust in the US government. Partly I guess because before the fall of the Soviet Union, to a lot of people it was a black-and-white good vs evil thing. If the Soviet Union was evil, then the US had to be squeaky clean and flawless. It of course helped that most people had no access to the internet.
I'm not surprised it's taken this long, given how hard people try to hold on to their beliefs even in the face of evidence. The fact of the matter is that we had, and still have, very little evidence about this surveillance, which slows the process down even further.
I was born in 1988. I have no memory of the Soviet Union. I distinctly remember Clinton taking office however. I also remember all of the wars in the 90s amongst former USSR states, in some cases civil wars.
There is almost no way someone my age could believe the Soviet Union boogeyman theory, because it never really existed in our lifetime. Yet, people still seem to believe that the US government is somehow incorruptible.
Very little evidence? Not for anyone paying attention, there were leaks and snippets galore. It's what got me reading cryptome regularly because they were the best source of actual echelon/tempest documents...
this was out in 2006, but people seemed to think it wasn't happening to them. even on tech literate sites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
my problem is now that pretty much the worst stuff i can think of is being done, what stuff are they doing that is beyond my imagination?
Honestly, most people simply dont want to know. The problem with learning dirty truths is that for former "true beleivers", the truths can take a huge toll mentally. Even for a rational and logical person, the cognitive dissonance and compartmentalization that can be generated can be a large burden to work through.
I'd put even money on each of: industrial espionage at Wall Street's beck and call, and a massive blackmail operation against elected officials.
This is my pet hypothesis too, and it's rarely mentioned.
Most governments whose inner workings have been exposed to the Western public (Khmer Rouge, Nazis, Soviets to some degree, others) have had many factionalized, competing intelligence organizations, all keeping dossiers on one another's chiefs and on everyone else occupying a position of power. There's no reason to think that our own governments aren't doing the same thing.
It's not too hard to imagine eg. a red state Senator toeing the party line on NSA funding, black budgets, or whistleblower punishment because he knows the pictures of him smooching a guy are one @nsa.gov email away from the front page of the Atlanta Journal Constitution.
would the cia hacking the senate's computers indicate the latter as being cut and dried?
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/01/world/senate-intelligence-...
also the former i believe is being done, on behalf of boeing against airbus here in a deal with the saudi's:
http://www.economist.com/node/1842124
my imaginiation is a bit wilder than you credit ;)
Remember the Clipper chip? It was announced in 1993 and by 1996 was entirely defunct.
EFF and Wired Magazine published a lot of anti-clipper backlash during that time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cyberright.png
https://w2.eff.org/Misc/Graphics/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip
Here's a photo that Tom Jennings took of some graffiti I left in South Park (next to Wired's office) in San Francisco around 1994:
http://worldpowersystems.com/projects/wps.com.21Oct1996/anti...