On the other hand, project zero publishes kiddies-ready exploits for their vulnerabilities, which is a very questionable practice for vulnerabilities which are still in the wild. Even if patches were available, it would be far better to wait for most devices to be patched before releasing a full exploit. They did this with iOS and now with Windows. We are now waiting for such useful ready-to-use exploits for major Android versions as well.
Metasploit does the same thing, and we've managed to not have the internet implode yet.
Yours is the standard argument against any form of disclosure. I'm not discounting it, because no disclosure has its merits, but responsible disclosure satisfies both an ethical imperative (you can't let people believe they're secure if you know otherwise) and provides pressure on vendors to fix their software, when the vendor might otherwise deem it not worth the time or money to fix the issue, which leaves their customers vulnerable.
The basic idea behind disclosure is "we might not be the first people to find this, and we definitely won't be the last, so let's remove all doubt and rob the bad guys of the element of surprise". Responsible disclosure is intended to permit responsible vendors to fix the issue before wide publication, but an uncooperative vendor doesn't mitigate the reality that the bug exists and will eventually be found by someone less benevolent.
AFAICT, the project zero team is about hunting down bugs and disclosing them responsibly.[1] They occasionally do write-ups on the project zero blog, after the vuln has gone public, but without actually giving out "kiddies-ready expoits", i.e. exploit source.
But even if they did, that still isn't a "questionable practice" - if the full details of the exploit are public, you'd barely need a writeup to connect the dots.
Even if patches were available, it would be far better to wait for most devices to be patched before releasing a full exploit.
So, for router exploits (say), that would be Infinity? If the manufacturer doesn't care, or the update ecosystem is broken (or nonexistent), nobody is more secure because someone did a writeup about a vuln that everyone (..interested) knows about.
Most exploits, however complex their discovery process may have been, end up as "send these bytes in this order" - they are usually very simple to duplicate once you know where the bodies are buried.
[1] As the GP says, 90 days is responsible disclosure.
I disagree that releasing an exploit is, per-se, not interesting. There are many kind of vulnerabilities, and some exploits are very complicated to write.
But really, that is not the point. I'm not debating disclosure vs non-disclosure. I'm debating having a "research team" employed by Google that publishes vulnerabilities and ready-to-use exploits for competing operating systems, irrespective of this probably being illegal because of their non-independent position. If Google wants to confirm that this is not a project to weaken competitions but to do true research for the sake of research itself and protection of end-users no matter what, they should (sooner or later) focus also on the major mobile operating system, Android, and give it equal treatment, including releasing ready-to-use exploits after 90 days. I'm sure Google will try an fix those vulns within 90 days as they are very good at it, but we also now that the great majority of Android devices will be fully vulnerable after 90 days. At that point, having a ready-to-use exploit circulating will be an interesting exercise of the ecosystem.
I disagree that releasing an exploit is, per-se, not interesting.
That isn't what I said, I believe my original point stands on its own. Please don't put words in my mouth, you don't know me that well :)
There are many kind of vulnerabilities, and some exploits are very complicated to write.
The most complicated exploit that I can think of would require you to put the target system in "some state" before sending the triggering payload. In the most-most complicated situations, where you can't "just replay bytes" to get it into the state (dynamic handshake - think heartbleed) you just use a library to do the initialization (or whatever) for you and then use the raw socket from the lib to send the payload.
That isn't very complicated, but perhaps I'm limited by my imagination.
ready-to-use exploits
I invited you to show a ready to use exploit on the Project Zero blog. Is there one, and I missed it?
probably being illegal because of their non-independent position
Now you're just being silly. The burden of proof is on you for this.
If Google wants to confirm that this is not a project to weaken competitions
Is this a popular enough opinion that Google should even know that it needs to confirm or prove anything?
The team does research, and the blog hosts writeups about public vulns. Some are even guest posts for crying out loud. The recent ntpd exploit could be applied to Linux as well. If you search for "Linux", plenty of stuff comes up. There may even be a corporate policy about not doing Android vuln writeups, but that still isn't malicious unless they're actually finding Android bugs and not patching them. If they do patch them, they'll get out. Them not having done a write-up on their blog isn't malicious.
The burden of proof for malice is on you. I'm all for tinfoil hat talk, but there has to be some substance, or it's just talk.
Even if patches were available, it would be far better to wait for most devices to be patched before releasing a full exploit.
The practice of a firm 90-day release schedule increases the probability that vendors will fix patches and take steps to assure that they are deployed to most devices within that period. But that only works if the practice is firm.
This is a great point. The article bemoaned Project Zero's rigid deadline as unreasonable, but I think you have it right - a known and standard deadline doesn't leave anyone surprised.
Yes, that is exactly what I am asking. I want ready-to-use exploit for vulnerabilities in major Android versions after 90 days from disclosure to Google from Project Zero.
The problem with not doing this is you're just leaving the hole open, and when vendors haven't bothered to respond before the deadline there's very little chance that they will do anything at all if it passes and there's no consequence. If details of the vulnerability are published, the vendor will have to patch it or openly admit they don't care about a significant risk to their business (note that the risk was there all along.)
Sorry, but this is on the vendors. Saying Google shouldn't release details is like saying the public shouldn't be informed of a dangerous flaw in a car model's brake system until the manufacturer has decided whether to launch a new model and what the marketing plan for it should be.
Comments
On the other hand, project zero publishes kiddies-ready exploits for their vulnerabilities, which is a very questionable practice for vulnerabilities which are still in the wild. Even if patches were available, it would be far better to wait for most devices to be patched before releasing a full exploit. They did this with iOS and now with Windows. We are now waiting for such useful ready-to-use exploits for major Android versions as well.
Metasploit does the same thing, and we've managed to not have the internet implode yet.
Yours is the standard argument against any form of disclosure. I'm not discounting it, because no disclosure has its merits, but responsible disclosure satisfies both an ethical imperative (you can't let people believe they're secure if you know otherwise) and provides pressure on vendors to fix their software, when the vendor might otherwise deem it not worth the time or money to fix the issue, which leaves their customers vulnerable.
The basic idea behind disclosure is "we might not be the first people to find this, and we definitely won't be the last, so let's remove all doubt and rob the bad guys of the element of surprise". Responsible disclosure is intended to permit responsible vendors to fix the issue before wide publication, but an uncooperative vendor doesn't mitigate the reality that the bug exists and will eventually be found by someone less benevolent.
It's still just an excuse. Of course there's no liability in computing so no one actually have to come to terms with that.
AFAICT, the project zero team is about hunting down bugs and disclosing them responsibly.[1] They occasionally do write-ups on the project zero blog, after the vuln has gone public, but without actually giving out "kiddies-ready expoits", i.e. exploit source.
But even if they did, that still isn't a "questionable practice" - if the full details of the exploit are public, you'd barely need a writeup to connect the dots.
So, for router exploits (say), that would be Infinity? If the manufacturer doesn't care, or the update ecosystem is broken (or nonexistent), nobody is more secure because someone did a writeup about a vuln that everyone (..interested) knows about.
Most exploits, however complex their discovery process may have been, end up as "send these bytes in this order" - they are usually very simple to duplicate once you know where the bodies are buried.
[1] As the GP says, 90 days is responsible disclosure.
I disagree that releasing an exploit is, per-se, not interesting. There are many kind of vulnerabilities, and some exploits are very complicated to write.
But really, that is not the point. I'm not debating disclosure vs non-disclosure. I'm debating having a "research team" employed by Google that publishes vulnerabilities and ready-to-use exploits for competing operating systems, irrespective of this probably being illegal because of their non-independent position. If Google wants to confirm that this is not a project to weaken competitions but to do true research for the sake of research itself and protection of end-users no matter what, they should (sooner or later) focus also on the major mobile operating system, Android, and give it equal treatment, including releasing ready-to-use exploits after 90 days. I'm sure Google will try an fix those vulns within 90 days as they are very good at it, but we also now that the great majority of Android devices will be fully vulnerable after 90 days. At that point, having a ready-to-use exploit circulating will be an interesting exercise of the ecosystem.
That isn't what I said, I believe my original point stands on its own. Please don't put words in my mouth, you don't know me that well :)
The most complicated exploit that I can think of would require you to put the target system in "some state" before sending the triggering payload. In the most-most complicated situations, where you can't "just replay bytes" to get it into the state (dynamic handshake - think heartbleed) you just use a library to do the initialization (or whatever) for you and then use the raw socket from the lib to send the payload.
That isn't very complicated, but perhaps I'm limited by my imagination.
I invited you to show a ready to use exploit on the Project Zero blog. Is there one, and I missed it?
Now you're just being silly. The burden of proof is on you for this.
Is this a popular enough opinion that Google should even know that it needs to confirm or prove anything?
The team does research, and the blog hosts writeups about public vulns. Some are even guest posts for crying out loud. The recent ntpd exploit could be applied to Linux as well. If you search for "Linux", plenty of stuff comes up. There may even be a corporate policy about not doing Android vuln writeups, but that still isn't malicious unless they're actually finding Android bugs and not patching them. If they do patch them, they'll get out. Them not having done a write-up on their blog isn't malicious.
The burden of proof for malice is on you. I'm all for tinfoil hat talk, but there has to be some substance, or it's just talk.
The practice of a firm 90-day release schedule increases the probability that vendors will fix patches and take steps to assure that they are deployed to most devices within that period. But that only works if the practice is firm.
This is a great point. The article bemoaned Project Zero's rigid deadline as unreasonable, but I think you have it right - a known and standard deadline doesn't leave anyone surprised.
Yes, that is exactly what I am asking. I want ready-to-use exploit for vulnerabilities in major Android versions after 90 days from disclosure to Google from Project Zero.
The problem with not doing this is you're just leaving the hole open, and when vendors haven't bothered to respond before the deadline there's very little chance that they will do anything at all if it passes and there's no consequence. If details of the vulnerability are published, the vendor will have to patch it or openly admit they don't care about a significant risk to their business (note that the risk was there all along.)
Sorry, but this is on the vendors. Saying Google shouldn't release details is like saying the public shouldn't be informed of a dangerous flaw in a car model's brake system until the manufacturer has decided whether to launch a new model and what the marketing plan for it should be.
I suppose that you will provide sources for that, don't you?