Heh, it did me too. I charged into the abyss all alone, eager to demolish my self. And ... succeeded. It very nearly turned out badly. When I say guidance, all I mean is someone who has been there and can pull you back if necessary. An extended "trip sitter", although this doesn't involve drugs.
It's a very nuanced and often misunderstood concept. Leaning too far to either side (hyper-reification of and attachment to the material world on one side, and Śūnyatā ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śūnyatā ) -- the emptiness or lack of "thingness" of all concepts -- on the other, lead each to their own problems. Of course, you can get so wrapped up in the observance of walking that line that it becomes a problem, too, which is sort of where Zen steps in with the simple and the absurd.
It all adds up to normality, like you said. I like that.
Precisely. Emptiness as practiced by a lone determined fool. See niece/nephew of your comment. I did it through disciplined meditation on emptiness and compassion in turns, and a sort of retreat from the world, as I had a little money put away and few expenses. It was wonderful for a while. I felt very happy. I literally felt that I'd dismantled everything that I thought I was. I no longer knew what I liked or disliked. It was very difficult to have an opinion about anything. I certainly wasn't hacking. I moved through the world in a sort of wide eyed daze (probably due to over-oxygenation :) It felt like I got maybe a quarter of the way to wherever it was I was going, although I have no way of knowing.
But life demands, and I stopped my practice and dove back into it with little thought, and that's when things got bad. I had no drive, no motivations, and didn't have a clue who I was anymore. But I also wasn't meditating, which can serve as preventative medicine against the effects of these things in the "real world". I felt kind of clueless and naked, like an amnesiac dumped in the middle of a big city.
Well, anyway, long story short, you'd be surprised how powerful these ancient techniques can be, and you'd be wise to seek guidance from someone experienced before you go dismantling yourself all willy-nilly :). I'm doing wonderfully now, though. And I'm not currently practicing.
One advice to anybody who hasn't spent much time thinking about these things deeply before. Don't do this alone. Have somebody with whom you can discuss (not on computer). Your mind can become like a shifting sand and you won't have any sort of hold to understand the world. Which can be extremely disconcerting.
You have a world view that you have acquired/formed based on certain assumptions that you may have never questioned. Once you start questioning them, you won't stop at any assumption, and you go into a sort of mental abyss, especially, if you have never believed in God.
One consolation is that however hopeless it may feel when you go there, you'll probably come out and get back to your usual self.
Really simplistic answer, but should get you started: there is no single definable thing that is identifiably "you". If you lost a foot, would you still be you? At what point does the food you eat become a part of you? If you lost your memories, or changed your mind about something you believe deeply, or if you go to sleep, do you stop being you?
How many of the tags you use to idendify yourself are actually group membership tags... e.g. pythonista, founder, etc.?
How many of the activities you do only make sense in the context of people (productive member of society stuff)? Even more, how many of the things you do are because of the consequences for or from others (feed your family, help your friends, do something recognized as really cool)?
Where "me" stops and society begins is always a bit fuzzy.
"Trying to define yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth." - Alan W. Watts
How do I know who I am? When I try a new food, what are my criteria for deciding whether or not I like it? If I wish to be a better person, why am I not already that better person?
Comments
Even the concept of "me" turns out to be fuzzy around the edges if you examine it too closely.
Try not to examine it too closely without proper guidance, though: it's a little more than just fuzzy.
Proper guidance? Does that ever rub me the wrong way.
Heh, it did me too. I charged into the abyss all alone, eager to demolish my self. And ... succeeded. It very nearly turned out badly. When I say guidance, all I mean is someone who has been there and can pull you back if necessary. An extended "trip sitter", although this doesn't involve drugs.
Seconded. It all adds up to normality. I wish someone had been there to remind me of that when I was going through some of this.
Buddhism refers to it as the Two Truths: conventional and ultimate truth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine
It's a very nuanced and often misunderstood concept. Leaning too far to either side (hyper-reification of and attachment to the material world on one side, and Śūnyatā ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śūnyatā ) -- the emptiness or lack of "thingness" of all concepts -- on the other, lead each to their own problems. Of course, you can get so wrapped up in the observance of walking that line that it becomes a problem, too, which is sort of where Zen steps in with the simple and the absurd.
It all adds up to normality, like you said. I like that.
You can't know the truth, but you can be it.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "demolishing your self" and how you did that? Are you talking about the buddhist concept of emptiness?
Precisely. Emptiness as practiced by a lone determined fool. See niece/nephew of your comment. I did it through disciplined meditation on emptiness and compassion in turns, and a sort of retreat from the world, as I had a little money put away and few expenses. It was wonderful for a while. I felt very happy. I literally felt that I'd dismantled everything that I thought I was. I no longer knew what I liked or disliked. It was very difficult to have an opinion about anything. I certainly wasn't hacking. I moved through the world in a sort of wide eyed daze (probably due to over-oxygenation :) It felt like I got maybe a quarter of the way to wherever it was I was going, although I have no way of knowing.
But life demands, and I stopped my practice and dove back into it with little thought, and that's when things got bad. I had no drive, no motivations, and didn't have a clue who I was anymore. But I also wasn't meditating, which can serve as preventative medicine against the effects of these things in the "real world". I felt kind of clueless and naked, like an amnesiac dumped in the middle of a big city.
Well, anyway, long story short, you'd be surprised how powerful these ancient techniques can be, and you'd be wise to seek guidance from someone experienced before you go dismantling yourself all willy-nilly :). I'm doing wonderfully now, though. And I'm not currently practicing.
One advice to anybody who hasn't spent much time thinking about these things deeply before. Don't do this alone. Have somebody with whom you can discuss (not on computer). Your mind can become like a shifting sand and you won't have any sort of hold to understand the world. Which can be extremely disconcerting.
You have a world view that you have acquired/formed based on certain assumptions that you may have never questioned. Once you start questioning them, you won't stop at any assumption, and you go into a sort of mental abyss, especially, if you have never believed in God.
One consolation is that however hopeless it may feel when you go there, you'll probably come out and get back to your usual self.
The "usual self" isn't necessarily a consolation. Otherwise people wouldn't be trying to get out of it in the first place.
Please could someone elaborate on how "me" is a fuzzy concept or provide a link?
Really simplistic answer, but should get you started: there is no single definable thing that is identifiably "you". If you lost a foot, would you still be you? At what point does the food you eat become a part of you? If you lost your memories, or changed your mind about something you believe deeply, or if you go to sleep, do you stop being you?
Another angle:
How many of the tags you use to idendify yourself are actually group membership tags... e.g. pythonista, founder, etc.?
How many of the activities you do only make sense in the context of people (productive member of society stuff)? Even more, how many of the things you do are because of the consequences for or from others (feed your family, help your friends, do something recognized as really cool)?
Where "me" stops and society begins is always a bit fuzzy.
"Trying to define yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth." - Alan W. Watts
How do I know who I am? When I try a new food, what are my criteria for deciding whether or not I like it? If I wish to be a better person, why am I not already that better person?
:) Enjoy!
http://lesswrong.com/lw/r9/quantum_mechanics_and_personal_id...