I hope my comment that you replied to doesn't make it sound like I disagree with you. I don't. But I do think it is reasonable for other people to disagree with us on that point. But I also agree with dragonwriter that perhaps a more important question is the practicality of having fewer things that "use ActiveRecord", such that you can then test those things without testing the database. I think it's a pretty good idea, but I've had only limited success doing it in practice.