Seems like a great opportunity for Bitcoin, if Bitcoin can overcome the many other hurdles it faces: anonymous crowdfunding, capable of circumventing ridiculous laws like this.
If by criminal you mean "in contravention of that which is decreed by state governments" then I think we should all be delighted that Bit/altcoins have such potential. It's about time the human race threw off the shackles of these by and large corrupt, wasteful, self-annointed states.
But seriously, that was an extraordinarily shallow if not downright stupid comment. Not only have you equated a serious political statement with a punk band based on obviously superficial understanding of either punk as a music genre or anarchism as a political philosophy, you've completely failed to understand the main point, somewhat obfuscated by talk on Bitcoin, of his argument, namely---basing your moral reasoning on what formal coercive authorities formally declare as good or wrong is a horribly low standard of moral reasoning.
As cryptocurrencies grow the power of governments to tax will diminish.
I think it'll be similar to music and movie piracy - they will be simply used so widely that it will be impossible to fight. Embattled governments will turn to deflation and increase the tax burden on those who continue to use state currencies, increasing even further the incentive to switch to cryptocurrencies. With only worthless fiat to pay armies and bureaucrats, governments may well collapse.
That seems pretty unlikely to me; much taxation is based around physical location and economic relationships, not control of the currency. My employer pays taxes not because the government controls the money, but because they rent an office in Copenhagen, do business there, and employ about 200 people, and it's pretty hard to hide all that. For one thing, the employees want to be counted as employed too, or else they wouldn't be eligible for pensions or various other aspects of the social system, and would complain loudly if the company failed to register its employees and pay taxes.
Also, things like car tax are successfully collected even on entirely black-market sales through this simple expedient: drive around the city scanning license plates, and check whether the car is registered. The same is done with apartments: do you own a $1m apartment in the center of Copenhagen? Your income taxes better explain where you got that much money. Paying for the apartment in Bitcoin won't help you hide the physical apartment.
I don't see cryptocurrencies as all that fundamentally different than cash (or even gold) for those kinds of purposes, which are already fairly easy to use for black-market transactions. The availability of money is not what's keeping my employer from paying me under the table; if they could get away with it, they could slip me USD or EUR bills under the table. And in a handful of small-scale occupations (e.g. hiring a house cleaner) people do so. But for most larger-scale stuff the cash itself is not the limiting factor; the limiting factor is that you do other things that get you noticed. Even that part is pretty classic: Al Capone was famously taken down on tax-evasion charges because he was clearly living a lifestyle above what he was reporting. If you buy a mansion and Lambo with your Bitcoin, you had better have your taxes in order.
I have been told that Spain has a big black market economy, it is part of ordinary life there to pay for say a car with "black money".
However I think even there the idea of setting up a tech company with more than a million euros of illegal currency that can't appear on your books might be a little challenging.
I'm an spaniard living in Spain. Yes, there is too much black market economy here, but I've never seen it with cars. People here usually don't pay VAT to the plumber, the electrician, etc.
EDIT: I'm talking about new cars. I guess the used car market is mostly black, but I don't know as I never bought or sold a used car.
On used cars is mixed. You need to pay taxes based on sell value, with a lower limit based on the blue book equivalent we have here. People just declare a bit less than blue book value and pay the minimum.
But yes, most of Spain's submerged economy is via services without invoices (no VAT, no IRPF).
Comments
Seems like a great opportunity for Bitcoin, if Bitcoin can overcome the many other hurdles it faces: anonymous crowdfunding, capable of circumventing ridiculous laws like this.
"capable of circumventing ridiculous laws like this"
Dude, by definition you are arguing that it's great for criminal uses.
When a law is ridiculous, the term legal is meaningless.
No it's not
It's meaning is quite clear.
That's not to say you can't argue that it should be ignored but please have a grown-up argument about it rather than resorting to rhetoric.
If by criminal you mean "in contravention of that which is decreed by state governments" then I think we should all be delighted that Bit/altcoins have such potential. It's about time the human race threw off the shackles of these by and large corrupt, wasteful, self-annointed states.
The Sex Pistols as political philosophy!
How about Dead Kennedys?
But seriously, that was an extraordinarily shallow if not downright stupid comment. Not only have you equated a serious political statement with a punk band based on obviously superficial understanding of either punk as a music genre or anarchism as a political philosophy, you've completely failed to understand the main point, somewhat obfuscated by talk on Bitcoin, of his argument, namely---basing your moral reasoning on what formal coercive authorities formally declare as good or wrong is a horribly low standard of moral reasoning.
Less philosophy, more inevitability really.
As cryptocurrencies grow the power of governments to tax will diminish. I think it'll be similar to music and movie piracy - they will be simply used so widely that it will be impossible to fight. Embattled governments will turn to deflation and increase the tax burden on those who continue to use state currencies, increasing even further the incentive to switch to cryptocurrencies. With only worthless fiat to pay armies and bureaucrats, governments may well collapse.
What comes next I have no idea.
That seems pretty unlikely to me; much taxation is based around physical location and economic relationships, not control of the currency. My employer pays taxes not because the government controls the money, but because they rent an office in Copenhagen, do business there, and employ about 200 people, and it's pretty hard to hide all that. For one thing, the employees want to be counted as employed too, or else they wouldn't be eligible for pensions or various other aspects of the social system, and would complain loudly if the company failed to register its employees and pay taxes.
Also, things like car tax are successfully collected even on entirely black-market sales through this simple expedient: drive around the city scanning license plates, and check whether the car is registered. The same is done with apartments: do you own a $1m apartment in the center of Copenhagen? Your income taxes better explain where you got that much money. Paying for the apartment in Bitcoin won't help you hide the physical apartment.
I don't see cryptocurrencies as all that fundamentally different than cash (or even gold) for those kinds of purposes, which are already fairly easy to use for black-market transactions. The availability of money is not what's keeping my employer from paying me under the table; if they could get away with it, they could slip me USD or EUR bills under the table. And in a handful of small-scale occupations (e.g. hiring a house cleaner) people do so. But for most larger-scale stuff the cash itself is not the limiting factor; the limiting factor is that you do other things that get you noticed. Even that part is pretty classic: Al Capone was famously taken down on tax-evasion charges because he was clearly living a lifestyle above what he was reporting. If you buy a mansion and Lambo with your Bitcoin, you had better have your taxes in order.
I have been told that Spain has a big black market economy, it is part of ordinary life there to pay for say a car with "black money".
However I think even there the idea of setting up a tech company with more than a million euros of illegal currency that can't appear on your books might be a little challenging.
Where do you think the term"Spanish practices" came from :-) of course the politically correct term is now "quaint andalusian customs"
When I worked for a big telecom JV it was an open secret that everyone thought that Telephonicas dominance in South America was not all above board
I'm an spaniard living in Spain. Yes, there is too much black market economy here, but I've never seen it with cars. People here usually don't pay VAT to the plumber, the electrician, etc.
EDIT: I'm talking about new cars. I guess the used car market is mostly black, but I don't know as I never bought or sold a used car.
On used cars is mixed. You need to pay taxes based on sell value, with a lower limit based on the blue book equivalent we have here. People just declare a bit less than blue book value and pay the minimum.
But yes, most of Spain's submerged economy is via services without invoices (no VAT, no IRPF).
yes I meant used cars. I'm the sort of cheap-ass who wouldn't even consider buying a car new.
Bitcoin is not anonymous. Is pseudonymous.