What would it take for this guy to actually admit that Apple no longer makes the best phones?
So okay, two year old iPhones still sell for a lot. Does that really show that Apple makes the best phones today? Or does it show that they used to make the best phones two years ago? If people are almost as happy with a two year old iPhone as a new one, is that really an argument against Apple having had a "lost year"?
Interestingly I just got my wife a Galaxy S4 Mini for Xmas. We both are longtime iOS users.
It just feels like I bought a Windows computer at a chain store, complete with adware lots of strange applications, unfinished widgets and options. So many options. there are even separate apps that hold options for G+ for example. It also made about 5 software updates in the first two days, one which broke the browser. It worked again after the nect update. I value that Apple rolls their patches into one bundle and preinstalls it when possible.
I wanted to switch to a MotoG on price alone but with that ecperience I dont think I want to.
I would just mindlessly configure around and try to understand all the options ogf my phone or worse, root it and install stock android. Id rather work and earn sone money to pay for the difference.
I think what you ran into was the problems of getting a Samsung phone rather than Android. Full size S4's (I assume mini's are similar) come with 7+ GB of software on top of Google's Android. If you got it from a carrier there may be more.
Samsung provides it's own version of everything, on top of the default apps. So what you get is:
* AOSP, OS and Open Source default apps.
* Google Play stuff. Google requires devices with Google Play store to also include all Google apps. (Eg Gmail)
* Samsung's apps. Samsung provides apps and includes all of them on full feature phones. Along with the Samsung phones.
If you try a Nexus 4 or a MotoG you will get something much closer to what should be on Android no Samsung bloated package.
Just got my brother a Nexus 5 for the holidays. Even those are bloated.
Example: the SMS app is actually Google+ Hangouts. Had to dig for the AOSP SMS app.
Another example: he complains about Google automatically uploading photos to a G+ account that he doesn't care about.
Even "vanilla Android" is getting bloated. Why are users being forced into G+? Why is the default Android SMS app linked to a social network by default?
Why does the fact that I'm criticizing Gruber's arguments mean I "obviously" don't think Apple currently makes the best phones? Bad arguments should be criticized. His arguments about Apple not having a "lost year" based on resale values from two years ago are, in my opinion, bogus.
Why should someone else "admit" to feeling the same way as you when they obviously do not?
What? They shouldn't. They should admit it at the point where it is obviously true. I'm asking what it would take to get to that point. If the next HTC phone cures cancer and the next iPhone can't make phone calls, would we still articles like this from daringfireball? I think the answer is clearly yes. This site consistently reads like it is ghostwritten by Apple's marketing team. Whether my personal preferences align with this stopped clock at this particular moment is utterly irrelevant.
Why does the fact that I'm criticizing Gruber's arguments mean I "obviously" don't think Apple currently makes the best phones? Bad arguments should be criticised.
Fair enough. It sounded more like you disagreed with his opinion when I read your original post than a criticism of his thinking.
I can see how I misinterpreted that.
This site consistently reads like it is ghostwritten by Apple's marketing team.
Except when Apple does something he disagrees with, then he complains about it.
He does expend a lot of energy arguing against Apple criticism, but he has also shown there is quite a bit of bad writing about Apple out there (usually because it attracts clicks). And he has owned up when his own predictions fall flat.
I usually find myself agreeing with about 70% of what he writes, which is more than I can say for other tech authors.
Apple makes plenty of bad products — I find their web services uniformly terrible — an area where Google excels. I like to think that if Apple produced similarly bad devices, Daring fireball would call them out on it.
> "What would it take for this guy to actually admit that Apple no longer makes the best phones?"
Personally I think they still make the best overall phone. There are better phones out there for certain people but the iPhone is the best all rounder. However:
iPhones have been my only smartphones. Every time I tried an alternative I didn't like it. I recently got a Nexus 4 and was impressed but the iPhone 5 still beat it in a few key areas for me (camera, microphone - I use voice memos a lot -, and screen). A few days ago I upgraded to the iPhone 5S. I'm not impressed. Touch ID is nice but I could live with out it. Slow motion camera for me is a gimmick. Speed improvements aren't really noticeable. The only real innovation is the M7. Overall there was very little reason to upgrade. It certainly wasn't worth the cost.
It got me thinking that next time round, if Apple continues at it's current pace, I'll probably be purchasing an Android device. As a full time iOS developer, a Mac user, and someone deeply ingrained in the Apple ecosystem that's a pretty big statement I think.
To be fair, the 5S is an incremental upgrade in many ways, much like the 4S or 3GS - little different in form or features, some minor enhancements, and a spec bump. If anything, the inclusion of touch ID, the 64-bit transition and the M7 make it a bit more of a bump than usual!
I expect we'll see more of a difference when the next iPhone is released.
I had both a Nexus 4 and iPhone 5. Day to day I mostly used the iPhone (Nexus was for development) but occasionally I'd switch to the Nexus for a few weeks at a time.
I upgraded from the 5 to the 5s and honestly can barely notice the difference. I've upgraded from a 4S to a 5 (another incremental update) previously and that seemed like a much more visible improvement in day-to-day use. I don't expect too much change in an 's' version but this year was particularly underwhelming.
Galaxy S4 for one. Between the screen size, SD card support, Google navigation, Swype, replaceable battery, general Android advantages (notifications, Google account integration), Chrome, hardware back button, etc., I would pretty bummed if I were somehow forced to give it up and get an iPhone.
Actually, the screen size and Swype would be enough since I mainly use my phone for web browsing and composing email.
Between the screen size, SD card support, Google navigation, Swype, replaceable battery, general Android advantages (notifications, Google account integration), Chrome, hardware back button
While i understand and respect that for a lot of people, these are compelling features that differentiates high end Android Phones from iPhones, it also seems to me that most of these are simply manifestations of the different priorities and compromises made by Apple and Google, Samsung et al. I mean, it's not like it's not within Apple's power to add each of these to the iPhone. It's just that they choose not to, because each of these come with some kind of compromise that is not acceptable to Apple. Which is cool and only goes to show that it's good that we have competition.
The reason I write though, is because I think it's disingenous to assert that Apple has somehow fallen behind, technologically, when they are very clearly keeping up and at the top of their game (look no further than the A7 chip). You may prefer a Samsung to an iPhone, because you find that you prefer the particular compromises made by Samsung/Google to those made by Apple. But understand that this has everything to do with what subjectively appeals to you and nothing to do with the actual technologically capabilities of each of these companies.
I think it's disingenous to assert that Apple has somehow fallen behind
I didn't assert this. He asked what phone I personally prefer, so I answered. I said that if I had to use an iPhone, I would be bummed.
The fact that Apple has "lost a year" (which they obviously have) doesn't necessarily mean they've "fallen behind". It means that others have caught up.
I've recently switched from android (my latest was a GS3) to iPhone 5s. I figured it was time for me to give Apple a shot at my phone. While screen size hasn't bothered me, you hit the nail on the head with Swype (or just the choice of alternate keyboards). I have found many things better in iOs than Android and vice versa, but my biggest gripe so far has been the keyboard.
The key to typing fast on iOS is to not stop and correct yourself when you make a mistake and let it correct it for you. After many years typing on iPhones, I'm much faster than I ever was on Blackberry with a physical keyboard.
I'm curious as to whether you perceive you are faster on the iPhone or whether, empirically, you are. I've seen some studies that have shown physical keyboards to be marginally faster than touchscreen keyboards, but not enough for most consumers to care.
"Handily" and "most" are funny words, given the benchmarking results in the Anandtech review of the Nexus 5. If by "most" you mean "battery," then I agree. Otherwise both phones are neck-and-neck, except for the camera (still sucks on the Nexus 5).
Here's a link to Anandtech, where the 5S is tied with the Nexus in most (not "most") tests, and beats it in more than a few:
Comments
What would it take for this guy to actually admit that Apple no longer makes the best phones?
So okay, two year old iPhones still sell for a lot. Does that really show that Apple makes the best phones today? Or does it show that they used to make the best phones two years ago? If people are almost as happy with a two year old iPhone as a new one, is that really an argument against Apple having had a "lost year"?
Interestingly I just got my wife a Galaxy S4 Mini for Xmas. We both are longtime iOS users. It just feels like I bought a Windows computer at a chain store, complete with adware lots of strange applications, unfinished widgets and options. So many options. there are even separate apps that hold options for G+ for example. It also made about 5 software updates in the first two days, one which broke the browser. It worked again after the nect update. I value that Apple rolls their patches into one bundle and preinstalls it when possible. I wanted to switch to a MotoG on price alone but with that ecperience I dont think I want to. I would just mindlessly configure around and try to understand all the options ogf my phone or worse, root it and install stock android. Id rather work and earn sone money to pay for the difference.
I think what you ran into was the problems of getting a Samsung phone rather than Android. Full size S4's (I assume mini's are similar) come with 7+ GB of software on top of Google's Android. If you got it from a carrier there may be more.
Samsung provides it's own version of everything, on top of the default apps. So what you get is:
* AOSP, OS and Open Source default apps. * Google Play stuff. Google requires devices with Google Play store to also include all Google apps. (Eg Gmail) * Samsung's apps. Samsung provides apps and includes all of them on full feature phones. Along with the Samsung phones.
If you try a Nexus 4 or a MotoG you will get something much closer to what should be on Android no Samsung bloated package.
Just got my brother a Nexus 5 for the holidays. Even those are bloated.
Example: the SMS app is actually Google+ Hangouts. Had to dig for the AOSP SMS app.
Another example: he complains about Google automatically uploading photos to a G+ account that he doesn't care about.
Even "vanilla Android" is getting bloated. Why are users being forced into G+? Why is the default Android SMS app linked to a social network by default?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
If you don't include Samsung, then you are ignoring the Android market leader.
I think Apple makes the best phones today, otherwise I wouldn't own one. That said, you obviously don't think so and that's fine.
Why should someone else "admit" to feeling the same way as you when they obviously do not?
Why does the fact that I'm criticizing Gruber's arguments mean I "obviously" don't think Apple currently makes the best phones? Bad arguments should be criticized. His arguments about Apple not having a "lost year" based on resale values from two years ago are, in my opinion, bogus.
What? They shouldn't. They should admit it at the point where it is obviously true. I'm asking what it would take to get to that point. If the next HTC phone cures cancer and the next iPhone can't make phone calls, would we still articles like this from daringfireball? I think the answer is clearly yes. This site consistently reads like it is ghostwritten by Apple's marketing team. Whether my personal preferences align with this stopped clock at this particular moment is utterly irrelevant.
Fair enough. It sounded more like you disagreed with his opinion when I read your original post than a criticism of his thinking.
I can see how I misinterpreted that.
Except when Apple does something he disagrees with, then he complains about it.
He does expend a lot of energy arguing against Apple criticism, but he has also shown there is quite a bit of bad writing about Apple out there (usually because it attracts clicks). And he has owned up when his own predictions fall flat.
I usually find myself agreeing with about 70% of what he writes, which is more than I can say for other tech authors.
Apple makes plenty of bad products — I find their web services uniformly terrible — an area where Google excels. I like to think that if Apple produced similarly bad devices, Daring fireball would call them out on it.
Personally I think they still make the best overall phone. There are better phones out there for certain people but the iPhone is the best all rounder. However:
iPhones have been my only smartphones. Every time I tried an alternative I didn't like it. I recently got a Nexus 4 and was impressed but the iPhone 5 still beat it in a few key areas for me (camera, microphone - I use voice memos a lot -, and screen). A few days ago I upgraded to the iPhone 5S. I'm not impressed. Touch ID is nice but I could live with out it. Slow motion camera for me is a gimmick. Speed improvements aren't really noticeable. The only real innovation is the M7. Overall there was very little reason to upgrade. It certainly wasn't worth the cost.
It got me thinking that next time round, if Apple continues at it's current pace, I'll probably be purchasing an Android device. As a full time iOS developer, a Mac user, and someone deeply ingrained in the Apple ecosystem that's a pretty big statement I think.
To be fair, the 5S is an incremental upgrade in many ways, much like the 4S or 3GS - little different in form or features, some minor enhancements, and a spec bump. If anything, the inclusion of touch ID, the 64-bit transition and the M7 make it a bit more of a bump than usual!
I expect we'll see more of a difference when the next iPhone is released.
the iPhone 5 still beat it in a few key areas for me [...] A few days ago I upgraded to the iPhone 5S. I'm not impressed.
This comment suggests you had both a Nexus 4 and an iPhone 5. Did you upgrade from a 5 to a 5S? Or something else?
FWIW, my last iPhone was a 4, and the 5S blows it out of the water.
I had both a Nexus 4 and iPhone 5. Day to day I mostly used the iPhone (Nexus was for development) but occasionally I'd switch to the Nexus for a few weeks at a time.
I upgraded from the 5 to the 5s and honestly can barely notice the difference. I've upgraded from a 4S to a 5 (another incremental update) previously and that seemed like a much more visible improvement in day-to-day use. I don't expect too much change in an 's' version but this year was particularly underwhelming.
Honest question: what phone do you find superior to the iPhone 5S, and why?
Galaxy S4 for one. Between the screen size, SD card support, Google navigation, Swype, replaceable battery, general Android advantages (notifications, Google account integration), Chrome, hardware back button, etc., I would pretty bummed if I were somehow forced to give it up and get an iPhone.
Actually, the screen size and Swype would be enough since I mainly use my phone for web browsing and composing email.
While i understand and respect that for a lot of people, these are compelling features that differentiates high end Android Phones from iPhones, it also seems to me that most of these are simply manifestations of the different priorities and compromises made by Apple and Google, Samsung et al. I mean, it's not like it's not within Apple's power to add each of these to the iPhone. It's just that they choose not to, because each of these come with some kind of compromise that is not acceptable to Apple. Which is cool and only goes to show that it's good that we have competition.
The reason I write though, is because I think it's disingenous to assert that Apple has somehow fallen behind, technologically, when they are very clearly keeping up and at the top of their game (look no further than the A7 chip). You may prefer a Samsung to an iPhone, because you find that you prefer the particular compromises made by Samsung/Google to those made by Apple. But understand that this has everything to do with what subjectively appeals to you and nothing to do with the actual technologically capabilities of each of these companies.
I didn't assert this. He asked what phone I personally prefer, so I answered. I said that if I had to use an iPhone, I would be bummed.
The fact that Apple has "lost a year" (which they obviously have) doesn't necessarily mean they've "fallen behind". It means that others have caught up.
I've recently switched from android (my latest was a GS3) to iPhone 5s. I figured it was time for me to give Apple a shot at my phone. While screen size hasn't bothered me, you hit the nail on the head with Swype (or just the choice of alternate keyboards). I have found many things better in iOs than Android and vice versa, but my biggest gripe so far has been the keyboard.
The key to typing fast on iOS is to not stop and correct yourself when you make a mistake and let it correct it for you. After many years typing on iPhones, I'm much faster than I ever was on Blackberry with a physical keyboard.
I'm curious as to whether you perceive you are faster on the iPhone or whether, empirically, you are. I've seen some studies that have shown physical keyboards to be marginally faster than touchscreen keyboards, but not enough for most consumers to care.
The Nexus 5 is pretty impressive. The iPhone still beats it pretty handedly in the camera department though.
Nexus 5 handily beats the iPhone in most categories, save perhaps the camera. Not to mention it is half the cost.
"Handily" and "most" are funny words, given the benchmarking results in the Anandtech review of the Nexus 5. If by "most" you mean "battery," then I agree. Otherwise both phones are neck-and-neck, except for the camera (still sucks on the Nexus 5).
Here's a link to Anandtech, where the 5S is tied with the Nexus in most (not "most") tests, and beats it in more than a few:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7517/google-nexus-5-review/4
Well if it is tied in most and beats it in some categories, for half the price tag that seems like a clearly superior phone to me.