I am not sure what is there that this makes a news (and that too on HN). Spying is a very old tool in the art of statecraft. It is neither inherently immoral nor illegal.
Even when we show outrage against NSA's snooping program, the only valid argument is that NSA perhaps can not snoop on American citizens as per the 4th amendment.
The only locus standi that we as tech people can have is that we should focus building on technologies that are more and more government proof and beneficial to the tech community and government. We should fight tooth and nail with any attempts by government that might force us to put backdoors, bugs and deliberate vulnerabilities which can ease any governments job.
I wouldn't say that Indonesia is a smaller nation than Australia, and by GDP ranked by countries they appear close to each other.
Australia has had a strange relationship with Indonesia, for example Whitlam's involvement in Indonesia and Australia's involvement in Timor.
The most recent interaction has been the people smugglers and the Bali bombings.
So even though I am skeptical on countries spying on their citizens, the reason Australia spies on Indonesia ( and probably vis versa ), may be for very relevant reasons.
I am not sure what is there that this makes a news
This is not news for all the initiated. It is news for the general population that is not aware of the extend that current spying takes. This also makes it important news for the general population since secret services undermine fundamental principles of democracy: Transparency and accountability. All revelations in the wake of Snowdens leak show that secret services around the world try to extend their capabilities and at the same time evade their responsibilities to report correctly to their government appointed controllers - be it the senate or the bundestag or whatever you call it in your country.
Also, spying is illegal, namely by the laws of the country you're spying on. It's also immoral, at least in the cases where your president signed a treaty promising not to spy and still, someone obviously ignored that agreement.
Even when we show outrage against NSA's snooping program, the only valid argument is that NSA perhaps can not snoop on American citizens as per the 4th amendment.
The much better argument is maybe that while it's technically not illegal, the cost-benefit analysis shows a net negative. Circumvention of legal checks and balances is another one. Just because some action may be legal doesn't make it a good thing in all cases - see ciscos latest losses.
Whether it's moral surely depends on whether you think people have a right to private communication. If you think it's immoral for someone to monitor your personal communications, then someone monitoring Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono's phone is surely immoral too.
I don't buy that it's someone less immoral because the stakes are higher.
Comments
I am not sure what is there that this makes a news (and that too on HN). Spying is a very old tool in the art of statecraft. It is neither inherently immoral nor illegal.
Even when we show outrage against NSA's snooping program, the only valid argument is that NSA perhaps can not snoop on American citizens as per the 4th amendment.
The only locus standi that we as tech people can have is that we should focus building on technologies that are more and more government proof and beneficial to the tech community and government. We should fight tooth and nail with any attempts by government that might force us to put backdoors, bugs and deliberate vulnerabilities which can ease any governments job.
Of course spying is immoral. I sure wouldn't want to be the friend or partner of someone who thinks it isn't.
Torture and genocide are also very old tools in the 'art' of statecraft, so that's not much of an endorsement.
If the supporters of this stuff are really down to 'well everybody does it', perhaps that's a sign that it's really just bad behavior.
Nations spying on each other is immoral? Why?
Because it's used by larger nations on smaller nations to take advantage of them.
I wouldn't say that Indonesia is a smaller nation than Australia, and by GDP ranked by countries they appear close to each other.
Australia has had a strange relationship with Indonesia, for example Whitlam's involvement in Indonesia and Australia's involvement in Timor.
The most recent interaction has been the people smugglers and the Bali bombings.
So even though I am skeptical on countries spying on their citizens, the reason Australia spies on Indonesia ( and probably vis versa ), may be for very relevant reasons.
This is not news for all the initiated. It is news for the general population that is not aware of the extend that current spying takes. This also makes it important news for the general population since secret services undermine fundamental principles of democracy: Transparency and accountability. All revelations in the wake of Snowdens leak show that secret services around the world try to extend their capabilities and at the same time evade their responsibilities to report correctly to their government appointed controllers - be it the senate or the bundestag or whatever you call it in your country.
Also, spying is illegal, namely by the laws of the country you're spying on. It's also immoral, at least in the cases where your president signed a treaty promising not to spy and still, someone obviously ignored that agreement.
The much better argument is maybe that while it's technically not illegal, the cost-benefit analysis shows a net negative. Circumvention of legal checks and balances is another one. Just because some action may be legal doesn't make it a good thing in all cases - see ciscos latest losses.
Whether it's moral surely depends on whether you think people have a right to private communication. If you think it's immoral for someone to monitor your personal communications, then someone monitoring Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono's phone is surely immoral too.
I don't buy that it's someone less immoral because the stakes are higher.