Hey no offense but I'm guessing that you haven't spent very much time interacting with children that aren't your own. In my experience children lie and dissemble and deceive before they learn to talk. Think about all of the crying and malingering they do to manipulate adults into giving them food or anything else that they happen to want. Think about the vicious competitiveness of every sibling rivalry. They do want to be loved, accepted, and encouraged as you say, but they are perfectly capable of figuring out their own ways of getting these things - and are often willing to bend the rules if they are not disciplined.
I can't disagree with you more. I have spent time around other parents' children. Many of the kids are better behaved than their parents. Many of them are dismayed that the world treats them poorly because of their parents' bad behavior.
Lying is a natural. It is a gift that humans and few other species share. Every child that matures into a capable adult learns how to lie. They experiment with lying. They test their ability to lie. Children who don't learn to lie are emotionally and intellectually stunted.
It is effective parenting that instills in the child the knowledge that lying is only so effective. It gets you some distance, but when the lie is discovered you crash. People distrust you. They won't help you when you need it. Honesty has value as well.
If parents give in to the lies, because they lack the courage to punish them, the child pays the price later in life. If parents don't teach their children that lies and dishonesty have negative consequences, and if lies are continually rewarded, then that's what the child is going to learn best.
Parents who reward lies are doing their children a great disservice as well as the world who has to tolerate them as they grow up.
"Many of the kids are better behaved than their parents."
Huh? Do you have any hard data to back up this bizarre proposition? Certainly everything I've ever experienced speaks rather forcefully against it. The bullying in schools, the ostracism of anyone different, the teasing. This is not learned behaviour, it is the default state, to be overcome by education and socialisation, not to be encouraged or preserved.
Methinks you are confusing the reality of children with what you wish or imagine children are. There is a reason "acting like a child" is not a compliment.
The bullying in schools, the ostracism of anyone different, the teasing. This is not learned behaviour, it is the default state, to be overcome by education and socialisation
I think the problems you mention are largely caused by today's school environments, not cured by them.
there was a video on the news the other day that some kids with cell phones had recorded of this one kid beating the crap out of another kid and it was the kid getting beat up who was punished by the school.
Okay, that's a fair point. There are some very stupid policies concerning fights - I've seen my younger brother be penalized for defending himself as well. But it is silly to say that schools cause the fights in the first place, and/or that kids, left to their own devices, would be civil to one another.
You're not contradicting me, because I'm not saying schools are entirely responsible for the cruelty of children. However, the problems are exacerbated by the environment.
Yes, children lie and cheat. But children that are not loved/given affection probably won't even learn to talk, and become emotionally damaged. There has been an interesting study on the effect on absence of affection on monkeys. It didn't turn out pretty.
Kids who are loved are cruel, they lie and they cheat. Children that are not loved are simply even worse.
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Hey no offense but I'm guessing that you haven't spent very much time interacting with children that aren't your own. In my experience children lie and dissemble and deceive before they learn to talk. Think about all of the crying and malingering they do to manipulate adults into giving them food or anything else that they happen to want. Think about the vicious competitiveness of every sibling rivalry. They do want to be loved, accepted, and encouraged as you say, but they are perfectly capable of figuring out their own ways of getting these things - and are often willing to bend the rules if they are not disciplined.
I can't disagree with you more. I have spent time around other parents' children. Many of the kids are better behaved than their parents. Many of them are dismayed that the world treats them poorly because of their parents' bad behavior.
Lying is a natural. It is a gift that humans and few other species share. Every child that matures into a capable adult learns how to lie. They experiment with lying. They test their ability to lie. Children who don't learn to lie are emotionally and intellectually stunted.
It is effective parenting that instills in the child the knowledge that lying is only so effective. It gets you some distance, but when the lie is discovered you crash. People distrust you. They won't help you when you need it. Honesty has value as well.
If parents give in to the lies, because they lack the courage to punish them, the child pays the price later in life. If parents don't teach their children that lies and dishonesty have negative consequences, and if lies are continually rewarded, then that's what the child is going to learn best.
Parents who reward lies are doing their children a great disservice as well as the world who has to tolerate them as they grow up.
"Many of the kids are better behaved than their parents."
Huh? Do you have any hard data to back up this bizarre proposition? Certainly everything I've ever experienced speaks rather forcefully against it. The bullying in schools, the ostracism of anyone different, the teasing. This is not learned behaviour, it is the default state, to be overcome by education and socialisation, not to be encouraged or preserved.
Methinks you are confusing the reality of children with what you wish or imagine children are. There is a reason "acting like a child" is not a compliment.
I think you're talking about children of different age groups.
The bullying in schools, the ostracism of anyone different, the teasing. This is not learned behaviour, it is the default state, to be overcome by education and socialisation
I think the problems you mention are largely caused by today's school environments, not cured by them.
This strikes me as a lofty-sounding statement that may not actually mean very much. I'd love to hear you elaborate and contradict me.
I think the US public school system is deeply flawed, but one of the few things I don't blame it for is the cruelty of children. Kids are just cruel.
there was a video on the news the other day that some kids with cell phones had recorded of this one kid beating the crap out of another kid and it was the kid getting beat up who was punished by the school.
Okay, that's a fair point. There are some very stupid policies concerning fights - I've seen my younger brother be penalized for defending himself as well. But it is silly to say that schools cause the fights in the first place, and/or that kids, left to their own devices, would be civil to one another.
One anecdote does not a general rule make.
You're not contradicting me, because I'm not saying schools are entirely responsible for the cruelty of children. However, the problems are exacerbated by the environment.
Okay, well we agree on that point. :)
Yes, children lie and cheat. But children that are not loved/given affection probably won't even learn to talk, and become emotionally damaged. There has been an interesting study on the effect on absence of affection on monkeys. It didn't turn out pretty.
Kids who are loved are cruel, they lie and they cheat. Children that are not loved are simply even worse.