I've been reading articles about this fascinating game for several days now, but haven't had the guts to invest the time into it given its steep learning curve. Kudos to these guys for doing exactly what they want to do and (yet) still making a living by coding.
Ever since I read the NY Times article posted here a couple years ago (see below), I have had a similar response. I love reading about Dwarf Fortress, but I'm hesitant to actually try it.
You guys should just try the game. There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span.
You can grok the basics of the game in an hour or so by following a beginner tutorial. During your first few hours you will fail your first few fortresses.
After your first session, you should have a grasp of things and the next time you should be able to just pick up the game and get back to it.
I think the time suck aspect of this game is exaggerated a lot. You can pause and save the game at any point and get back to it later.
There's one thing that some of the tutorials and introductions don't make clear: you control the fortress, not the individual dwarfs.
"There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span"
No. Your assertion is that the only likely improvement to the UI would be a simple gamepad-mashing interface. DF is difficult even compared to programs with a complicated UI and games with a "normal" steep learning curve. Not wanting to battle through an insane UI does not equate one to a "soda guzzling teen".
Seriously. I play and love the grand strategy games Paradox Interactive makes (Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis, Victoria, etc.), and those are some pretty complicated, hard-to-get-into games. And yet even I look at Dwarf Fortress and think "man, that's impossible."
Well - you CAN order your dwarves around. It's just ludicrously complex.
You can also manipulate world-gen so you have an easier time of it (making the game essentially Harvest Moon with occasional killer fish), but where's the fun in that?
You guys should try it. Get the LazyNewbPack, that is a windows bundle which comes with a few utils, tilesets etc. Check out the wiki (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/), it's the best website on the internet. If you're still stuck, visit the df subreddit and ask for help, the people there are pretty awesome (http://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress).
It takes some getting into, but once you're in, you're in.
It's actually a lot more accessible than it seems.
For anyone interested in learning to play DF, I highly recommend YouTube user 51ppycup's "Dwarf Fortress for Dummies" series - he gets the basics across really well and you'll be striking the earth in no time.
Do you know of any recent non-video tutorials. Personally I really don't find them very easy to follow. Pausing and trying to jump back and forward is thoroughly annoying. Besides laziness I'm not sure why people make video tutorials at all for anything technical but that might be just me. Text with screenshots is miles ahead. Again, IMHO. Making video tutorials, especially unrehearsed and unedited with tons of Uhhmm eh, and now then... <lost train of thought> are just lazy versus text + screenshots.
These ones were ok, but they were too slow in places and too fast in other places; I had a hard time learning much from them without continuously reverting back to the wiki to figure out what I really can or should do.
A learning curve usually is time on x-axis and knowledge-percentage on y-axis. If knowledge-percentage only slowly increases the curve is flat. A nearly vertical curve means you learn fast.
This is a little bit like educating people about kerning [0]. For another example, a "quantum leap" is basically the smallest possible leap you can do.
I always assumed the "learning curve" is the curve required to make progress in the game, i.e. the x-axis is "progress in the game" and the y-axis is "knowledge-percentage".
It's a wall with electrified spikes on top. And armed guards instructed to shoot on sight. And rabid dogs. And behind the wall there are other walls.
I tried to start the game 5 times. The first 3 I could not even start a game. The 4th one I followed a tutorial and was able to start, and nothing else. The fifth time, I found Captnduck's excellent video tutorials ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koZUS2h-Yzc ), and I was finally able to break into the game.
Then they added a whole layer of complexity to the military (with a lot of new UI quirks) and I just stopped playing.
If you are just curious about the game, there are many "Let's Play Dwarf Fortress" videos on YouTube. Expert players talk through the game features and progression.
Tim Denee's two infographic/comics on his [1]Bronzemurder and [2]Oilfurnace fortresses were what finally convinced me to take the plunge.
I knew basically nothing of the game, so found a random [3]step-by-step tutorial and actually did pretty well until I accidentally killed the mayor, several other nobles and half my standing army at the grand opening of the new great drawbridge due to a...Minor malfunction.
The biggest three tips I can give are:
A. get a texture pack. I'm sure many people love the ASCII, but actually seeing dwarf and goblin icons removed one more thing for me to learn at the beginning.
B. download Dwarf Therapist. It's a great external UI for managing the roles of your dwarves.
C. don't be afraid to fail, because you will. Often.
That bronzemurder story is fantastic, I started playing DF the other week and although I move and plan quite slowly, it's very fun.
I'm actually building on a pregenerated world right now where there are 2 cliff faces and waterfalls across from each other. Aquifer's are really annoying though.
Do you know of any texture packs that don't make the map 'zoom' level extremely high? Most of the texture packs seem to be made for large and specific resolutions, I play a smaller window mode on mba (1366x768).
Thanks to that tutorial I made absolutely sure my starting point was aquifer-free, but I might try with one at some point just for the challenge.
I use Phoebus' Graphics Pack on my 1024x600 netbook and it seems ok, but I'm pretty used to a tiny screen and resolution so it might not be what you're after.
To get a great flavour of dwarf fortress in a longer written form. You can't go wrong with boatmurdered, which is a game where each player took a year (I think) of playing the fortress and then handed on to the next player to pick up the pieces and carry on.
http://lparchive.org/Dwarf-Fortress-Boatmurdered/
Unfortunately, I don't think that Dwarf Fortress is a game that is enjoyable if you just look at someone else playing it. There's too much little stuff going on in the screen to figure out what the big stuff is and the pace of the game can be slow. There are a few good video tutorials, though.
Just try the game.
edit: there are some tools you can use to visualize your dungeons and what is going on there. There might be nice videos of some 3d-renderings of fortresses that might be nice to give you an idea of the game.
I'm biased as a long time player but with a graphics tile set I don't think the graphics are any worse than your average DOS or console game from the early 90s.
The only problem is the input system but anyone who has mastered Unix can easily master DF.
Comments
I've been reading articles about this fascinating game for several days now, but haven't had the guts to invest the time into it given its steep learning curve. Kudos to these guys for doing exactly what they want to do and (yet) still making a living by coding.
Ever since I read the NY Times article posted here a couple years ago (see below), I have had a similar response. I love reading about Dwarf Fortress, but I'm hesitant to actually try it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-of...
You guys should just try the game. There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span.
You can grok the basics of the game in an hour or so by following a beginner tutorial. During your first few hours you will fail your first few fortresses.
After your first session, you should have a grasp of things and the next time you should be able to just pick up the game and get back to it.
I think the time suck aspect of this game is exaggerated a lot. You can pause and save the game at any point and get back to it later.
There's one thing that some of the tutorials and introductions don't make clear: you control the fortress, not the individual dwarfs.
"There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span"
No. Your assertion is that the only likely improvement to the UI would be a simple gamepad-mashing interface. DF is difficult even compared to programs with a complicated UI and games with a "normal" steep learning curve. Not wanting to battle through an insane UI does not equate one to a "soda guzzling teen".
No, his assertion wasn't that the only likely improvement to the UI would be a simple gamepad-mashing interface.
And nowhere was is implied that not wanting to battle through an insane UI does not equate one to a "soda guzzling teen".
Seriously. I play and love the grand strategy games Paradox Interactive makes (Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis, Victoria, etc.), and those are some pretty complicated, hard-to-get-into games. And yet even I look at Dwarf Fortress and think "man, that's impossible."
Completely agree. Dwarf Therapist kinda shows how you can improve the UI without dumbing the game in itself down
Well - you CAN order your dwarves around. It's just ludicrously complex.
You can also manipulate world-gen so you have an easier time of it (making the game essentially Harvest Moon with occasional killer fish), but where's the fun in that?
As someone who played far too much emulator Harvest Moon, I think you are selling short the prospect of such a game + occasional killer fish.
Thanks for the encouragement. Think I'll give it a go, or I guess begin my descent in to losing (whereby losing == fun).
You guys should try it. Get the LazyNewbPack, that is a windows bundle which comes with a few utils, tilesets etc. Check out the wiki (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/), it's the best website on the internet. If you're still stuck, visit the df subreddit and ask for help, the people there are pretty awesome (http://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress).
It takes some getting into, but once you're in, you're in.
It's actually a lot more accessible than it seems.
For anyone interested in learning to play DF, I highly recommend YouTube user 51ppycup's "Dwarf Fortress for Dummies" series - he gets the basics across really well and you'll be striking the earth in no time.
Dwarf Fortress for Dummies 2012: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD1A3FE72C0DCAC66
Do you know of any recent non-video tutorials. Personally I really don't find them very easy to follow. Pausing and trying to jump back and forward is thoroughly annoying. Besides laziness I'm not sure why people make video tutorials at all for anything technical but that might be just me. Text with screenshots is miles ahead. Again, IMHO. Making video tutorials, especially unrehearsed and unedited with tons of Uhhmm eh, and now then... <lost train of thought> are just lazy versus text + screenshots.
These ones were ok, but they were too slow in places and too fast in other places; I had a hard time learning much from them without continuously reverting back to the wiki to figure out what I really can or should do.
And by steep, you mean vertical.
Actually, flat.
A learning curve usually is time on x-axis and knowledge-percentage on y-axis. If knowledge-percentage only slowly increases the curve is flat. A nearly vertical curve means you learn fast.
This is a little bit like educating people about kerning [0]. For another example, a "quantum leap" is basically the smallest possible leap you can do.
[0] http://xkcd.com/1015/
I always assumed the "learning curve" is the curve required to make progress in the game, i.e. the x-axis is "progress in the game" and the y-axis is "knowledge-percentage".
Most learning curves I've seen actually imply the reverse, with time on the y-axis and knowledge on the x-axis.
In that case, a learning curve is a sort of visual hill with a steepness indicating difficulty of progression.
Or if by vertical he means running face first into a wall...
Upvotes for both though...
It's a wall with electrified spikes on top. And armed guards instructed to shoot on sight. And rabid dogs. And behind the wall there are other walls.
I tried to start the game 5 times. The first 3 I could not even start a game. The 4th one I followed a tutorial and was able to start, and nothing else. The fifth time, I found Captnduck's excellent video tutorials ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koZUS2h-Yzc ), and I was finally able to break into the game.
Then they added a whole layer of complexity to the military (with a lot of new UI quirks) and I just stopped playing.
It's best to stay away until you have a chunk of time, because it sucks you in so much..
If you are just curious about the game, there are many "Let's Play Dwarf Fortress" videos on YouTube. Expert players talk through the game features and progression.
Any recommendations for non-players looking to get sucked into whatever it is that makes it so intriguing?
Tim Denee's two infographic/comics on his [1]Bronzemurder and [2]Oilfurnace fortresses were what finally convinced me to take the plunge.
I knew basically nothing of the game, so found a random [3]step-by-step tutorial and actually did pretty well until I accidentally killed the mayor, several other nobles and half my standing army at the grand opening of the new great drawbridge due to a...Minor malfunction.
The biggest three tips I can give are:
A. get a texture pack. I'm sure many people love the ASCII, but actually seeing dwarf and goblin icons removed one more thing for me to learn at the beginning.
B. download Dwarf Therapist. It's a great external UI for managing the roles of your dwarves.
C. don't be afraid to fail, because you will. Often.
[1]http://bronzemurder.timdenee.com/
[2]http://oilfurnace.timdenee.com/
[3]http://afteractionreporter.com/2009/02/09/the-complete-and-u... (warning, may be out of date!)
That bronzemurder story is fantastic, I started playing DF the other week and although I move and plan quite slowly, it's very fun.
I'm actually building on a pregenerated world right now where there are 2 cliff faces and waterfalls across from each other. Aquifer's are really annoying though.
Do you know of any texture packs that don't make the map 'zoom' level extremely high? Most of the texture packs seem to be made for large and specific resolutions, I play a smaller window mode on mba (1366x768).
Thanks to that tutorial I made absolutely sure my starting point was aquifer-free, but I might try with one at some point just for the challenge.
I use Phoebus' Graphics Pack on my 1024x600 netbook and it seems ok, but I'm pretty used to a tiny screen and resolution so it might not be what you're after.
I like Captain Duck who has a bunch of tutorials and Lets Plays along with a soothing Dutch accent. http://www.youtube.com/user/captnduck
To get a great flavour of dwarf fortress in a longer written form. You can't go wrong with boatmurdered, which is a game where each player took a year (I think) of playing the fortress and then handed on to the next player to pick up the pieces and carry on. http://lparchive.org/Dwarf-Fortress-Boatmurdered/
Unfortunately, I don't think that Dwarf Fortress is a game that is enjoyable if you just look at someone else playing it. There's too much little stuff going on in the screen to figure out what the big stuff is and the pace of the game can be slow. There are a few good video tutorials, though.
Just try the game.
edit: there are some tools you can use to visualize your dungeons and what is going on there. There might be nice videos of some 3d-renderings of fortresses that might be nice to give you an idea of the game.
I'm biased as a long time player but with a graphics tile set I don't think the graphics are any worse than your average DOS or console game from the early 90s.
The only problem is the input system but anyone who has mastered Unix can easily master DF.