It's an internship position. Plenty of CS people take internships that pay minimum wage, or nothing at all. So far as I can tell, even Spolsky's interns get a flat stipend. Royalties are uncommon even for fulltimers and contractors.
Fog Creek pays $750/week + free housing + free lunch and MetroCard for transportation. You can easily live on $750/week if you don't have to deal with housing in NYC. And even if you had to deal with housing, you can still survive on $3000/month, even in NYC.
Saying "We'll give you some $ and housing and food if you intern for us. Don't live around here? No problem, we'll give you housing!" is hugely different then "Come intern for us. Don't live in SF? Move here anyway! We might not actually pay you, but it will be a good experience."
I'm not trying to argue that this offer is better, but you're arguing about apples when I'm talking about oranges; what I said was, I don't see where it says Spolsky offers royalties on work product.
I don't know of any CS students at my university that are taking minimum wage this summer. All the places I interviewed at had a floor of about $20/hr.
Since the ad stated that they want students from very good universities, I can't imagine their prospects would be worse.
That said, if someone takes this position, they will get far more experience than working most other gigs.
It's not necessarily a bad offer, though the ability to obtain food and shelter are usually factors I consider in my job search. However, I think the comparison to minimum wage or unpaid internships is invalid. We ain't Poli Sci students.
I'd agree with you. I don't know much about cs students, but engineering internships usually always pay. While looking for engineering internships the range seemed to be between 12 and 20 an hour.
I have offered to work for free, but whenever I have done that, I have been informed that the internship paid. Also, I have only volunteered that when the internship was close to home. I understand that the startup might not be able to afford to pay, but I don't really know how affordable it would be for me to volunteer and have to pay for food, housing, and transportation.
The offer would be a whole lot more attractive if you offered housing, even if housing was just sharing a room with another employee.
Ok, just for the record: $12-$20/hr is about the range I'm arguing internships seem to land. The original claim was that interns should be making $5k/mo.
I agree with you that the big thing missing here is housing. On the other hand, if you mostly plan on picking up locals, housing doesn't matter. We pay interns, but we still end up with Chicago and NYC people for the same reason.
I just reread my post. I was referring to the startup not paying, not anyone else.
I agree with you. Royalty is a very surprising offer. But their most competitive applicants will probably be local. I don't really know how to judge the expected worth of the royalty, and the cost seems like it would be expensive for anyone not local.
Let's stipulate that there is a CS student profile that clearly would not be interested in an unpaid internship, and move on from that rathole.
This thread has already produced one apparent example of a high-profile internship that pays less than $20/hr: Joel Spolsky's Fog Creek. I could name three well-known companies in my space that also pay less than that. I believe you that there are lots of internships that pay $20+/hr, but $20/hr is still pretty far from $5k/mo.
Plenty of CS people take internships that pay minimum wage, or nothing at all.
Perhaps, but "amazing hackers" with "great references" who are taking CS "likely at a very good school" aren't going to be considering internships that pay minimum wage, or anything close. Even in this economy, I'd expect that good students should be looking at something in the ballpark of $5k/month.
$30/hr? I think you're wildly overstating what typical interns make. Interns aren't full-time employees, and they come with zero industry experience.
$60,000/yr is more than the average starting full-time salary for a CS graduate.
Fog Creek --- they of the gold-plated Manhattan offices, the first class airplane tickets, and the fridges stocked with Louis XIII --- offers ~18/hr to interns.
$30/hr? I think you're wildly overstating what typical interns make.
Well, I'm only speaking from my own experience. I wasn't talking about "typical interns", because the original article specifically said they were looking for "amazing hackers". But I think most good student hackers will have a very good chance of getting an internship offer from Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, and so on, and AFAIK they all pay somewhere in the ballpark of $5k/month.
Interns aren't full-time employees, and they come with zero industry experience.
Sure, but if you want to hire top college grads, a very effective way to do so is to hire them as interns, pay them well, and give them a good experience.
Plenty of smart people will take unpaid internships because they really like the company and because the position fits their lifestyle in between school years. You just implied they were subpar developers.
The two lowest-paid positions I've taken (obviously not counting the zero-salary founder role) were the two most lucrative --- in straight up dollar terms --- in my career to date.
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It's an internship position. Plenty of CS people take internships that pay minimum wage, or nothing at all. So far as I can tell, even Spolsky's interns get a flat stipend. Royalties are uncommon even for fulltimers and contractors.
I wouldn't do it, but it's not a BS offer.
Fog Creek pays $750/week + free housing + free lunch and MetroCard for transportation. You can easily live on $750/week if you don't have to deal with housing in NYC. And even if you had to deal with housing, you can still survive on $3000/month, even in NYC.
Saying "We'll give you some $ and housing and food if you intern for us. Don't live around here? No problem, we'll give you housing!" is hugely different then "Come intern for us. Don't live in SF? Move here anyway! We might not actually pay you, but it will be a good experience."
I'm not trying to argue that this offer is better, but you're arguing about apples when I'm talking about oranges; what I said was, I don't see where it says Spolsky offers royalties on work product.
I don't know of any CS students at my university that are taking minimum wage this summer. All the places I interviewed at had a floor of about $20/hr.
Since the ad stated that they want students from very good universities, I can't imagine their prospects would be worse.
That said, if someone takes this position, they will get far more experience than working most other gigs.
It's not necessarily a bad offer, though the ability to obtain food and shelter are usually factors I consider in my job search. However, I think the comparison to minimum wage or unpaid internships is invalid. We ain't Poli Sci students.
I'd agree with you. I don't know much about cs students, but engineering internships usually always pay. While looking for engineering internships the range seemed to be between 12 and 20 an hour.
I have offered to work for free, but whenever I have done that, I have been informed that the internship paid. Also, I have only volunteered that when the internship was close to home. I understand that the startup might not be able to afford to pay, but I don't really know how affordable it would be for me to volunteer and have to pay for food, housing, and transportation.
The offer would be a whole lot more attractive if you offered housing, even if housing was just sharing a room with another employee.
Ok, just for the record: $12-$20/hr is about the range I'm arguing internships seem to land. The original claim was that interns should be making $5k/mo.
I agree with you that the big thing missing here is housing. On the other hand, if you mostly plan on picking up locals, housing doesn't matter. We pay interns, but we still end up with Chicago and NYC people for the same reason.
I just reread my post. I was referring to the startup not paying, not anyone else.
I agree with you. Royalty is a very surprising offer. But their most competitive applicants will probably be local. I don't really know how to judge the expected worth of the royalty, and the cost seems like it would be expensive for anyone not local.
Let's stipulate that there is a CS student profile that clearly would not be interested in an unpaid internship, and move on from that rathole.
This thread has already produced one apparent example of a high-profile internship that pays less than $20/hr: Joel Spolsky's Fog Creek. I could name three well-known companies in my space that also pay less than that. I believe you that there are lots of internships that pay $20+/hr, but $20/hr is still pretty far from $5k/mo.
> pays less than $20/hr: Joel Spolsky's Fog Creek.
$750/40 = $18.75
plus
free meals =~ $100/week, so now we're up to $21.25 an hour
plus
free nyc housing =~ $200/week, so now we're up to $25.25 an hour.
That's a good point.
Plenty of CS people take internships that pay minimum wage, or nothing at all.
Perhaps, but "amazing hackers" with "great references" who are taking CS "likely at a very good school" aren't going to be considering internships that pay minimum wage, or anything close. Even in this economy, I'd expect that good students should be looking at something in the ballpark of $5k/month.
$30/hr? I think you're wildly overstating what typical interns make. Interns aren't full-time employees, and they come with zero industry experience.
$60,000/yr is more than the average starting full-time salary for a CS graduate.
Fog Creek --- they of the gold-plated Manhattan offices, the first class airplane tickets, and the fridges stocked with Louis XIII --- offers ~18/hr to interns.
But Fog Creek is small. Both of my offers for this summer were at least 30/hour.
Furthermore, the average wage at my school is 22/hour (for ECE interns).
I'm interested in what the company profiles were of the places that extended you offers (I know you don't want to name names).
$30/hr? I think you're wildly overstating what typical interns make.
Well, I'm only speaking from my own experience. I wasn't talking about "typical interns", because the original article specifically said they were looking for "amazing hackers". But I think most good student hackers will have a very good chance of getting an internship offer from Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, and so on, and AFAIK they all pay somewhere in the ballpark of $5k/month.
Interns aren't full-time employees, and they come with zero industry experience.
Sure, but if you want to hire top college grads, a very effective way to do so is to hire them as interns, pay them well, and give them a good experience.
'appreciate that. We think it'll be a sweet experience for the right folks.
I think you've set yourself up so that anyone who would be willing to take your offer shouldn't be trusted.
why?
Because its a shitty deal. A good developer wouldn't take it.
Plenty of smart people will take unpaid internships because they really like the company and because the position fits their lifestyle in between school years. You just implied they were subpar developers.
The two lowest-paid positions I've taken (obviously not counting the zero-salary founder role) were the two most lucrative --- in straight up dollar terms --- in my career to date.