I can say, w\o hyperbole, that radical honesty ruined my life. Do not, I repeat do not believe that people are generally good, want to help you, will appreciate your honesty.
Now, I didn't do anything stupid like telling my boss that I'd like to sleep with his daughter, but, when he asked me where I saw myself in 5 years I did say that I wanted to start my own business.
Our relationship went from great to icy.
Over the next seven months my work life became a living hell. I went from "valued team contributor" to "does not function as part of the unit." My dedication was called into question and eventually I was told that the company had changed and that I was no longer useful.
I wasn't fired, but, I was left alone in my office, no new tasks were assigned, my medical condition was not accommodated, etc.
I eventually left my position, lost my gf because of it, ruined my credit after I couldn't find a new job, and have been unable to get loans to return to school (after leaving to help out my former employer.)
I often wonder what my life would be like if I had just said: "In five years I see myself working for you with only a slight raise!"
To play devil's advocate, I would say that perhaps the benefits of being radically honest haven't been made apparent to you yet.
I don't know anything about you but let's have a little thought experiment here:
Sure it has seemingly destroyed your life in the short term, but I would argue that having a less kitschy life might be good for you.
Let's take your situation claim by claim. By being open and honest with your boss, you indirectly put an end to your career. But had you lied and remained there, would you have always been happy? Surely your dreams were to start your own business.
Now your gf. Again, I don't know anything about your relationship. But if your gf left due to financial reasons, wasn't it better to learn that lesson sooner rather than later?
Your credit. With the same disclaimers as above, perhaps having your credit destroyed was a forceful way of telling you to refocus your priorities in life. no?
You can always wonder what your life might have been like if you made a different decision. I do that all the time. But I'd like to think that honesty opens doors, not closes them. You might disagree with everything I just wrote, but I would like to see your response a year (or 5) from now how your life has changed.
Over and over people here on HN tell each other the same old advice: "Execution is everything."
By being radically honest with your boss, you executed a career change poorly. Nothing else needs to be said. We could speculate that had he executed his career aspirations better, he would've ended up founding his own businessa, on his own terms, with his former boss on board as a character reference or angel investor.
Likewise, the girlfriend might not have left for a financial reason: It might have been a combination of money and his medical condition going un-addressed.
Having your credit destroyed makes it harder, not easier to start your own business. "Focusing on your priorities" doesn't mean shit. Realistically $10k in debt, or poor credit, sets you back 7 years compared to most of your peers. "Get used to living on less -- like always within your meager means" might be a better mantra.
Also, he might've also been a dreamer with no intention of working for himself. In my approximation, that's 80% of the people here on HN. To them, the grass is greener, but they won't ever dare try climbing the fence.
I can say, w\o hyperbole, that radical honesty ruined my life.
Do you truly feel that your life is ruined? It sounds like you are/were in a bad situation, but do you not see yourself bouncing back eventually?
(some brutal honesty here, if you'll permit me) You need to take responsibility for your life. You got dealt a shitty hand, but what is past is past. You have skills and aspirations and you are the only person that can apply the skills toward the aspirations.
What do you mean, you couldn't find a new job? It sounds like you had at least a year from when things got icy to when your life was destroyed. If you can't find another job in a year, perhaps the great disaster wasn't all your employer's fault.
Where I'm living, which is far from ideal if you're into tech, there's maybe six companies capable of paying me what I'm worth on the local job market. They all know they're the biggest and the best in the area. Two have really dickish HR that make me doubt they're actually a good company worth working for. One I personally know treats its employees like garbage.
So there's three real companies you can work for in my area. Of those, I work at one. I am waiting to hear back from the other two. From one, I know it will likely not be good.
So where does this really leave me? Careerwise, I'm trapped.
I need to re-locate if I want to find something better. Or find a telecommuting gig. Or start my own company, etc.
Radical Honesty, especially from strangers, just ends up being the "hypothetical 20/20 hindsight voice" and a bunch of personal responsibility b.s. I bet its also his fault he had a medical condition that affects his health?
I upvoted you because, as your anecdote suggests, lying is an important social tool. No matter how liberating it may be, telling the blunt truth hurts other people and yourself.
Listen, it's a lot simpler than this. You took an action: honesty. Your boss responded: icy. Your next action should be: what do I do with this response? If it's sitting and doing nothing in your office, then you will bear the fruits of that.
On the other hand, if you took that time to focus on what you wanted - start your own business - you could be living your dream right now.
It's never too late. Life isn't our circumstances. It's what we do with our circumstances.
I applaud you for being honest with your boss. He handled it like a simpleton. A true leader would either inspire you to stay or inspire you to give your all while you're there.
Given where you are now, be honest with yourself, dust yourself off, and go start that business!
Well it seems you considered it was safe to be honest with your boss because you felt you had a good relationship with him but in reality you found out it was only predicated on your apparent dedication to him. I think it's better to find these things out sooner than later.
"my medical condition was not accommodated"
That would have seem to have been grounds for some legal action in my opinion or a least a good reason for getting unemployment benefits after you left.
"Now, I didn't do anything stupid like telling my boss that I'd like to sleep with his daughter,..."
I find this interesting because I myself have had a great improvement in my relationship with my dad and some of my friends just by being able to communicate more directly.
My dad actually told me a few days ago something he had learned from a friend, that anything that you say to another person with absolute sincerity and respect is, in fact, a gift to the other person. And I'm starting to believe him.
I would be very interested to hear what got you started with radical honesty, or was it just in that moment with your boss that you were excessively candid?
The tough situation in life is only being able to be sincere when expressing disrespect, because the other guy deserves disrespect. What do you think about this? (I'll treat your honest answer as a respectful answer, whatever you say.)
It really depends on the temperament of the friend.
One of my good friends, who's declared I will be his best man at his wedding, used to be the guy at the party scoping out the drunkest chick for the "easy lay".
I flat out told him I'm not inviting him to my parties because I know all the girls that come to my parties personally, and I'm "sick and tired of watching you take advantage of the drunkest chick at my party."
He's told me that hearing this, he almost completely wrote me off as an asshole and never spoke to me again. It was only over time, and by seeing how shaping up (being nicer to people, not being completely selfish or short sighted) he realized I was right. And I was urging him to be "better" because I knew he was "better".
TD;DR: Radical Honesty can work, has a low success rate, and will always, always, always generate resentment. People instinctually kill the messenger.
Where's the follow-through, the conversation where you say, "I'm mad at you for being vindictive when I shared my life goals. It seems we can both benefit by what I shared, but you're just being petty." How did that go? Or the conversation with his boss?
One moment of insipid 'bravery' is not 'radical honesty'.
I upvoted this because clearly, if something can hurt you you should know about that before trying it.
But I am interested: was your problem a fundamental one, or were you perhaps not adequately prepared to try this? How much "training" did you do on the concept before trying it? Did you read his books? Go to his workshops?
I have done tremendous "work" (i.e. therapy, workshops, "New Thought" classes) and when I see this, I am intrigued, but my response was to send notes to my friends and to order some books on it. I'll discuss it with my "New Thought" class tonight. I'll discuss it with my wife before telling her about all the magnificent and desirable... etc. But I mean its like all the time, you know?
I made a similar mistake in a job interview once. I was interviewing for a position as IT technician, and the network manager asked me where I wanted to be in 5 years time. I responded "in your job".
It didn't go down well, and although I explained that I meant "in a position of responsibility such as that of network manager" rather than replacing him in his actual job, we never did get on. Although I got the job, I was forced to quit just over 3 months later because I couldn't stand the tension.
It turned out that he was an asshole to everyone, but I have a feeling I marked my cards somewhat.
I agree with this one. I mentioned to a program lead that I felt I was ready for responsibility such as being a program lead, and despite writing the prototype of the system we were designing, having intimate knowledge of the requirements, performance awards and recognition for my dedication to that client, i got stuck on doing the metrics module all by myself. And it was slated to be replaced (as soon as I was done with it) with an off-the-shelf reporting tool.
Bottom line: If you feel you're ready for the next level, find a place that wants you there and will take you in. Don't ever let your boss know you're not 100% in love with the shit sandwiches you're being fed.
I don't agree, controlling your tongue is one of the hardest things to master. The age old saying "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything" rings true in this case for sure.
There are personal feelings and comments which are better left private, not everything I think or feel is anyone's business but my own and a lot can be said for having a little tact.
I think your definition of lying is a little more broad than mine. I would consider lying a deliberate effort to mislead someone from the truth or your actual opinion.
For example, if said person had a very beautiful daughter, and asked me for my opinion on it, I would have no problem telling him that she was indeed, beautiful.
Why would he need more information? If he's pressing for more details on a persons lust for his daughter, he has more problems than me answering him honestly (though with tact).
Likewise, if he mentioned how beautiful his daughter was and I went into vulgar or even vague detail about what I thought of her and her attributes, then I stepped out of line.
If the topic is never brought up, and I don't say anything, I am not in fact lying, there is nothing to be misleading to him.
On another note, if he asked where I saw myself in 5 years, I would answer honestly and suffer the consequences, if I did hope to start my business, I would mention that as an ultimate goal. Generally that will hurt your career opportunities with the current employer, but honestly, contract work might be the better option for you anyway if you're only after starting your own business.
I have through freelance work built up quite a relationship with a client who I wouldn't mind working full time for. And I would/do consider going contract full time occasionally, but I really have no plans to (I'm just not closed off to future opportunities, and I grew up in entrepreneurial house, so it's always going to be a desire to do my own thing). Should I tell my employer that if a great opportunity arises I would take it? Not at all, they know they have the power to negotiate situations like that, and they arn't unfamiliar with them either.
I do see your point though, if you're misleading someone who asked a direct question through inaction, it could be considered lying, though I try my hardest to avoid this.
//'when he asked me where I saw myself in 5 years I did say that I wanted to start my own business.'
The article does warn: '"I advocate never lying in personal relationships. But if you have Anne Frank in your attic and a Nazi knocks on the door, lie....I lie to any government official."
Some bosses or people should be treated like govt officials.
Comments
I can say, w\o hyperbole, that radical honesty ruined my life. Do not, I repeat do not believe that people are generally good, want to help you, will appreciate your honesty.
Now, I didn't do anything stupid like telling my boss that I'd like to sleep with his daughter, but, when he asked me where I saw myself in 5 years I did say that I wanted to start my own business.
Our relationship went from great to icy.
Over the next seven months my work life became a living hell. I went from "valued team contributor" to "does not function as part of the unit." My dedication was called into question and eventually I was told that the company had changed and that I was no longer useful.
I wasn't fired, but, I was left alone in my office, no new tasks were assigned, my medical condition was not accommodated, etc.
I eventually left my position, lost my gf because of it, ruined my credit after I couldn't find a new job, and have been unable to get loans to return to school (after leaving to help out my former employer.)
I often wonder what my life would be like if I had just said: "In five years I see myself working for you with only a slight raise!"
Don't try this at home.
To play devil's advocate, I would say that perhaps the benefits of being radically honest haven't been made apparent to you yet.
I don't know anything about you but let's have a little thought experiment here:
Sure it has seemingly destroyed your life in the short term, but I would argue that having a less kitschy life might be good for you.
Let's take your situation claim by claim. By being open and honest with your boss, you indirectly put an end to your career. But had you lied and remained there, would you have always been happy? Surely your dreams were to start your own business.
Now your gf. Again, I don't know anything about your relationship. But if your gf left due to financial reasons, wasn't it better to learn that lesson sooner rather than later?
Your credit. With the same disclaimers as above, perhaps having your credit destroyed was a forceful way of telling you to refocus your priorities in life. no?
You can always wonder what your life might have been like if you made a different decision. I do that all the time. But I'd like to think that honesty opens doors, not closes them. You might disagree with everything I just wrote, but I would like to see your response a year (or 5) from now how your life has changed.
Over and over people here on HN tell each other the same old advice: "Execution is everything."
By being radically honest with your boss, you executed a career change poorly. Nothing else needs to be said. We could speculate that had he executed his career aspirations better, he would've ended up founding his own businessa, on his own terms, with his former boss on board as a character reference or angel investor.
Likewise, the girlfriend might not have left for a financial reason: It might have been a combination of money and his medical condition going un-addressed.
Having your credit destroyed makes it harder, not easier to start your own business. "Focusing on your priorities" doesn't mean shit. Realistically $10k in debt, or poor credit, sets you back 7 years compared to most of your peers. "Get used to living on less -- like always within your meager means" might be a better mantra.
Also, he might've also been a dreamer with no intention of working for himself. In my approximation, that's 80% of the people here on HN. To them, the grass is greener, but they won't ever dare try climbing the fence.
I can say, w\o hyperbole, that radical honesty ruined my life.
Do you truly feel that your life is ruined? It sounds like you are/were in a bad situation, but do you not see yourself bouncing back eventually?
(some brutal honesty here, if you'll permit me) You need to take responsibility for your life. You got dealt a shitty hand, but what is past is past. You have skills and aspirations and you are the only person that can apply the skills toward the aspirations.
What do you mean, you couldn't find a new job? It sounds like you had at least a year from when things got icy to when your life was destroyed. If you can't find another job in a year, perhaps the great disaster wasn't all your employer's fault.
That's more of a geographically loaded question.
Where I'm living, which is far from ideal if you're into tech, there's maybe six companies capable of paying me what I'm worth on the local job market. They all know they're the biggest and the best in the area. Two have really dickish HR that make me doubt they're actually a good company worth working for. One I personally know treats its employees like garbage.
So there's three real companies you can work for in my area. Of those, I work at one. I am waiting to hear back from the other two. From one, I know it will likely not be good.
So where does this really leave me? Careerwise, I'm trapped. I need to re-locate if I want to find something better. Or find a telecommuting gig. Or start my own company, etc.
Radical Honesty, especially from strangers, just ends up being the "hypothetical 20/20 hindsight voice" and a bunch of personal responsibility b.s. I bet its also his fault he had a medical condition that affects his health?
I upvoted you because, as your anecdote suggests, lying is an important social tool. No matter how liberating it may be, telling the blunt truth hurts other people and yourself.
Listen, it's a lot simpler than this. You took an action: honesty. Your boss responded: icy. Your next action should be: what do I do with this response? If it's sitting and doing nothing in your office, then you will bear the fruits of that.
On the other hand, if you took that time to focus on what you wanted - start your own business - you could be living your dream right now.
It's never too late. Life isn't our circumstances. It's what we do with our circumstances.
I applaud you for being honest with your boss. He handled it like a simpleton. A true leader would either inspire you to stay or inspire you to give your all while you're there.
Given where you are now, be honest with yourself, dust yourself off, and go start that business!
I also wouldn't advise one other form of lying he partakes in:
I lie to the IRS. I always take more deductions than are justified.
He must be nuts to state this publicly.
Well it seems you considered it was safe to be honest with your boss because you felt you had a good relationship with him but in reality you found out it was only predicated on your apparent dedication to him. I think it's better to find these things out sooner than later.
"my medical condition was not accommodated" That would have seem to have been grounds for some legal action in my opinion or a least a good reason for getting unemployment benefits after you left.
"Now, I didn't do anything stupid like telling my boss that I'd like to sleep with his daughter,..."
Yeah, you could have ended up married to her...
I find this interesting because I myself have had a great improvement in my relationship with my dad and some of my friends just by being able to communicate more directly.
My dad actually told me a few days ago something he had learned from a friend, that anything that you say to another person with absolute sincerity and respect is, in fact, a gift to the other person. And I'm starting to believe him.
I would be very interested to hear what got you started with radical honesty, or was it just in that moment with your boss that you were excessively candid?
absolute sincerity and respect
The tough situation in life is only being able to be sincere when expressing disrespect, because the other guy deserves disrespect. What do you think about this? (I'll treat your honest answer as a respectful answer, whatever you say.)
It really depends on the temperament of the friend.
One of my good friends, who's declared I will be his best man at his wedding, used to be the guy at the party scoping out the drunkest chick for the "easy lay".
I flat out told him I'm not inviting him to my parties because I know all the girls that come to my parties personally, and I'm "sick and tired of watching you take advantage of the drunkest chick at my party."
He's told me that hearing this, he almost completely wrote me off as an asshole and never spoke to me again. It was only over time, and by seeing how shaping up (being nicer to people, not being completely selfish or short sighted) he realized I was right. And I was urging him to be "better" because I knew he was "better".
TD;DR: Radical Honesty can work, has a low success rate, and will always, always, always generate resentment. People instinctually kill the messenger.
Where's the follow-through, the conversation where you say, "I'm mad at you for being vindictive when I shared my life goals. It seems we can both benefit by what I shared, but you're just being petty." How did that go? Or the conversation with his boss?
One moment of insipid 'bravery' is not 'radical honesty'.
I upvoted this because clearly, if something can hurt you you should know about that before trying it.
But I am interested: was your problem a fundamental one, or were you perhaps not adequately prepared to try this? How much "training" did you do on the concept before trying it? Did you read his books? Go to his workshops?
I have done tremendous "work" (i.e. therapy, workshops, "New Thought" classes) and when I see this, I am intrigued, but my response was to send notes to my friends and to order some books on it. I'll discuss it with my "New Thought" class tonight. I'll discuss it with my wife before telling her about all the magnificent and desirable... etc. But I mean its like all the time, you know?
I made a similar mistake in a job interview once. I was interviewing for a position as IT technician, and the network manager asked me where I wanted to be in 5 years time. I responded "in your job".
It didn't go down well, and although I explained that I meant "in a position of responsibility such as that of network manager" rather than replacing him in his actual job, we never did get on. Although I got the job, I was forced to quit just over 3 months later because I couldn't stand the tension.
It turned out that he was an asshole to everyone, but I have a feeling I marked my cards somewhat.
I agree with this one. I mentioned to a program lead that I felt I was ready for responsibility such as being a program lead, and despite writing the prototype of the system we were designing, having intimate knowledge of the requirements, performance awards and recognition for my dedication to that client, i got stuck on doing the metrics module all by myself. And it was slated to be replaced (as soon as I was done with it) with an off-the-shelf reporting tool.
Bottom line: If you feel you're ready for the next level, find a place that wants you there and will take you in. Don't ever let your boss know you're not 100% in love with the shit sandwiches you're being fed.
I practice this on a daily basis as I don't even believe in using lying as a social tool.
Sometimes it's best to not saying anything when you don't have a good answer, or the answer is inappropriate.
Lying through silence is still lying.
I don't agree, controlling your tongue is one of the hardest things to master. The age old saying "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything" rings true in this case for sure.
There are personal feelings and comments which are better left private, not everything I think or feel is anyone's business but my own and a lot can be said for having a little tact.
Agreed, but you're not disagreeing with me. It's a lying, but it's usually white lies, the ones necessary for society to function as it does.
(I wasn't saying that you shouldn't lie through inaction; I was just saying that inaction can be a form of lying.)
I think your definition of lying is a little more broad than mine. I would consider lying a deliberate effort to mislead someone from the truth or your actual opinion.
For example, if said person had a very beautiful daughter, and asked me for my opinion on it, I would have no problem telling him that she was indeed, beautiful.
Why would he need more information? If he's pressing for more details on a persons lust for his daughter, he has more problems than me answering him honestly (though with tact).
Likewise, if he mentioned how beautiful his daughter was and I went into vulgar or even vague detail about what I thought of her and her attributes, then I stepped out of line.
If the topic is never brought up, and I don't say anything, I am not in fact lying, there is nothing to be misleading to him.
On another note, if he asked where I saw myself in 5 years, I would answer honestly and suffer the consequences, if I did hope to start my business, I would mention that as an ultimate goal. Generally that will hurt your career opportunities with the current employer, but honestly, contract work might be the better option for you anyway if you're only after starting your own business.
I have through freelance work built up quite a relationship with a client who I wouldn't mind working full time for. And I would/do consider going contract full time occasionally, but I really have no plans to (I'm just not closed off to future opportunities, and I grew up in entrepreneurial house, so it's always going to be a desire to do my own thing). Should I tell my employer that if a great opportunity arises I would take it? Not at all, they know they have the power to negotiate situations like that, and they arn't unfamiliar with them either.
I do see your point though, if you're misleading someone who asked a direct question through inaction, it could be considered lying, though I try my hardest to avoid this.
My family crest bears this motto in latin: "He conquers, he who conquers himself."
//'when he asked me where I saw myself in 5 years I did say that I wanted to start my own business.'
The article does warn: '"I advocate never lying in personal relationships. But if you have Anne Frank in your attic and a Nazi knocks on the door, lie....I lie to any government official."
Some bosses or people should be treated like govt officials.