This is definitely not news, and it's a general interest article that's not particularly related to hackers in any way.
Top spot on Hacker News right now.
Admins, the community is telling you something: this site has become a Reddit clone with a more highbrow tone.
I would down vote you if I could -- This article is the writing of a man who was murdered for his ideals. It makes us think about life and death. It makes us contemplate how committed we are to our everyday routines. It makes us wonder if we would have been strong enough to do the same. It is a wake up call, plain and simple, and Heroku faux pas and git branching suggestions can wait.
not news, and [...] not particularly related to hackers
True – neither of which is the mandate of the site. The mandate is to be intellectually interesting. I found it interesting to read such a lucid letter by a man who knew he would be murdered and didn't seek to avoid that fate. I also find a journalist whose primary commitment is to truth to be as interesting as the other rare species people sometimes post to HN.
Downvoted. I like the article and find it refreshing compared to the "I built X in Y" and such, and your comment is not informative. If you don't like the article, just skip the comments and read something you believe is more related to hackers.
>>Admins, the community is telling you something: this site has become a Reddit clone with a more highbrow tone.
Please, don't speak in the name of the community. Actually, it's the main reason I downvoted you.
The community spoke, by voting up this submission: he just translated those votes into words, while reasonably pointing out that the community speaking now is not saying the same thing it was saying when he was initially attracted to this site.
While I can't see how much he's been upvoted, I suspect many feel the same way he does. I certainly do. HackerNews of late has very little to differentiate it from other discussion sites like reddit and MetaFilter.
Part of what makes a community like this is the diversity of intellectual stimulation. If all we read about was hacker stuff, we would start to suffer from homogenization of thought.
Another huge benefit of non-hacker submissions that you clearly overlook is that it gets hackers out of the Silicon Valley tunnel vision and starts to get them thinking about other industries, cities, countries, and problems.
I enjoyed reading it. It was a sobering reminder of some highly relevant struggles and challenges concerned citizens the world over face.
The argument can be made there are "other" forums where I could digest this information, but I don't really check "other" forums - I visit HN. I'm glad to get an occasional diversion from the otherwise fairly insular SV-centric content.
Perhaps I lack your sensibilities regarding what constitutes acceptable content on HN, but this is not a post / contribution I would think of flagging.
I'm sorry if you don't like the story. I didn't decide for it to be at the top. I considered it relevant to what happened today. Immediately after I posted I shared my own experience living in a community that was unsafe for journalists and brought up the suggestion that perhaps there should be more organizations like wikileaks that are set up to allow for anonymous reporting, not only for government whistle blowers, but for reporters that live in fear of putting their name to their work.
Right. The problem might not be technological in nature, but some potential solutions are.
I, for one, find myself energized. Too often I get lost in the micro-problems of tech & software, and forget that there are larger fish to fry in this world.
I thought it was interesting, though I didn't vote on it either way. It seems reasonably meaty and brings up some interesting questions about journalism and governance. I guess it's not the best thing I've seen on HN, but I wouldn't put it among the top things I would like to see less of on HN either (self-help-book-style blog posts about "lifehacking", dieting/fitness plans, etc., are #1 on that list).
Okay. If you would like to narrow the criteria for submission I would actually be okay with that. I've upvoted several articles today that have prompted that reaction, which tells me that I'm doing something wrong.
Where do we start this discussion?
EDIT: I think the problem isn't that HN is getting off topic so much as it is getting trivial:
PayMill. Is it really a clone of Stripe?
Tips for work-life balance
Shell startup scripts
The “It” Crowd Doesn’t Like Me and I Finally Don’t Care
Pretty much this. This article actually had good content, that I enjoyed reading, instead of yet another random blog post "Why I like/dislike X" or something in that vein.
Its a leap, but perhaps the appeal to hackers is the same as journalists, transparency and sunlight are the enemy to those that which to oppress, control and dominate.
Perhaps hackers are the few technorati that can effect transparent information sharing without journalists and editors being threatened and murdered.
On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. "
The article in question certainly does satisfy my intellectual curiosity. It shows a disturbing trend of muckrakers being shut down by dictatorial governments. In addition, the intercourse that is currently being carried out on this particular is very interesting and also satisfies my intellectual curiosity.
I can't downvote you, but even if I did have enough karma to do so, I wouldn't anyway. I'd rather people have misconceptions and have them resolved rather than have people punished for those misconceptions.
> I can't downvote you, but...I wouldn't anyway. I'd rather people have misconceptions...
Diego has been on HN over 5 years and has enough karma to be able to downvote 10 times over. Dismissing his comment as a misconception of how HN works seems a bit ridiculous on your part. His observation is a legitimate one -- if there are no real limits on what material is appropriate, then how do we define ourselves as a community in a way that helps newcomers understand what is appropriate and how our litmus test differs from other sites?
Legitimate it may be, and by no means is this the most shining example of a good article, but it's not spam or anything like what is usually on the homepage of Reddit.
> if there are no real limits on what material is appropriate, then how do we define ourselves as a community
Let me stop you right there. There is a limit on appropriate material; in fact, it's from pg himself, and I included it in my original comment. The article in question qualifies as appropriate material, which is where diego is incorrect.
Even experienced people are not infallible; everyone makes mistakes.
> There is a limit on appropriate material...and I included it in my original comment.
I'm sorry, but I don't buy it -- "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" is not a limit at all as it can be extended to literally everything depending on where each person's curiosity lies.
I didn't downvote you, but I'm not sure this is a helpful comment. I flagged the story because I think that's a much more useful and direct way to express that you don't think a certain story belongs on this site. And I realize I'm being a hypocrite here, but the only thing worse than off-topic stories is lengthy debates over what is and is not off-topic.
(And, incidentally, the stories on HN tend to get rather off-topic over the weekend when, I imagine, much of its core user base is not checking the site. I wouldn't sweat it too much.)
1) different things get to the front page on the weekends
2) this covers a bunch of stuff that is deeply interesting to hackers. Anonymous information sharing; secret information sharing; some way of having signed but anonymous information sent from the field to an office.
"Of interest to hackers" is the metric. HN isn't about hacking, or startups; it's for hackers working on startups. The distinction is fine, but it exists.
I assume this is so the community can at least have the discussion, rather than him being downvoted into oblivion by the same folks who upvoted the this article to the top spot.
Comments
This is definitely not news, and it's a general interest article that's not particularly related to hackers in any way. Top spot on Hacker News right now.
Admins, the community is telling you something: this site has become a Reddit clone with a more highbrow tone.
Edit: if you downvote, please reply too.
I would down vote you if I could -- This article is the writing of a man who was murdered for his ideals. It makes us think about life and death. It makes us contemplate how committed we are to our everyday routines. It makes us wonder if we would have been strong enough to do the same. It is a wake up call, plain and simple, and Heroku faux pas and git branching suggestions can wait.
not news, and [...] not particularly related to hackers
True – neither of which is the mandate of the site. The mandate is to be intellectually interesting. I found it interesting to read such a lucid letter by a man who knew he would be murdered and didn't seek to avoid that fate. I also find a journalist whose primary commitment is to truth to be as interesting as the other rare species people sometimes post to HN.
Downvoted. I like the article and find it refreshing compared to the "I built X in Y" and such, and your comment is not informative. If you don't like the article, just skip the comments and read something you believe is more related to hackers.
>>Admins, the community is telling you something: this site has become a Reddit clone with a more highbrow tone.
Please, don't speak in the name of the community. Actually, it's the main reason I downvoted you.
The community spoke, by voting up this submission: he just translated those votes into words, while reasonably pointing out that the community speaking now is not saying the same thing it was saying when he was initially attracted to this site.
While I can't see how much he's been upvoted, I suspect many feel the same way he does. I certainly do. HackerNews of late has very little to differentiate it from other discussion sites like reddit and MetaFilter.
I liked it too. It's just not hacker news. It's not even news. I'd seen it before on a mainstream site.
I like to see hacker news on Hacker News.
Part of what makes a community like this is the diversity of intellectual stimulation. If all we read about was hacker stuff, we would start to suffer from homogenization of thought.
Another huge benefit of non-hacker submissions that you clearly overlook is that it gets hackers out of the Silicon Valley tunnel vision and starts to get them thinking about other industries, cities, countries, and problems.
I enjoyed reading it. It was a sobering reminder of some highly relevant struggles and challenges concerned citizens the world over face.
The argument can be made there are "other" forums where I could digest this information, but I don't really check "other" forums - I visit HN. I'm glad to get an occasional diversion from the otherwise fairly insular SV-centric content.
Perhaps I lack your sensibilities regarding what constitutes acceptable content on HN, but this is not a post / contribution I would think of flagging.
I'm sorry if you don't like the story. I didn't decide for it to be at the top. I considered it relevant to what happened today. Immediately after I posted I shared my own experience living in a community that was unsafe for journalists and brought up the suggestion that perhaps there should be more organizations like wikileaks that are set up to allow for anonymous reporting, not only for government whistle blowers, but for reporters that live in fear of putting their name to their work.
Right. The problem might not be technological in nature, but some potential solutions are.
I, for one, find myself energized. Too often I get lost in the micro-problems of tech & software, and forget that there are larger fish to fry in this world.
I thought it was interesting, though I didn't vote on it either way. It seems reasonably meaty and brings up some interesting questions about journalism and governance. I guess it's not the best thing I've seen on HN, but I wouldn't put it among the top things I would like to see less of on HN either (self-help-book-style blog posts about "lifehacking", dieting/fitness plans, etc., are #1 on that list).
Okay. If you would like to narrow the criteria for submission I would actually be okay with that. I've upvoted several articles today that have prompted that reaction, which tells me that I'm doing something wrong.
Where do we start this discussion?
EDIT: I think the problem isn't that HN is getting off topic so much as it is getting trivial:
PayMill. Is it really a clone of Stripe?
Tips for work-life balance
Shell startup scripts
The “It” Crowd Doesn’t Like Me and I Finally Don’t Care
Pretty much this. This article actually had good content, that I enjoyed reading, instead of yet another random blog post "Why I like/dislike X" or something in that vein.
Its a leap, but perhaps the appeal to hackers is the same as journalists, transparency and sunlight are the enemy to those that which to oppress, control and dominate.
Perhaps hackers are the few technorati that can effect transparent information sharing without journalists and editors being threatened and murdered.
just a thought
From pg's Guidelines:
"What to Submit
On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. "
The article in question certainly does satisfy my intellectual curiosity. It shows a disturbing trend of muckrakers being shut down by dictatorial governments. In addition, the intercourse that is currently being carried out on this particular is very interesting and also satisfies my intellectual curiosity.
I can't downvote you, but even if I did have enough karma to do so, I wouldn't anyway. I'd rather people have misconceptions and have them resolved rather than have people punished for those misconceptions.
> I can't downvote you, but...I wouldn't anyway. I'd rather people have misconceptions...
Diego has been on HN over 5 years and has enough karma to be able to downvote 10 times over. Dismissing his comment as a misconception of how HN works seems a bit ridiculous on your part. His observation is a legitimate one -- if there are no real limits on what material is appropriate, then how do we define ourselves as a community in a way that helps newcomers understand what is appropriate and how our litmus test differs from other sites?
Legitimate it may be, and by no means is this the most shining example of a good article, but it's not spam or anything like what is usually on the homepage of Reddit.
> if there are no real limits on what material is appropriate, then how do we define ourselves as a community
Let me stop you right there. There is a limit on appropriate material; in fact, it's from pg himself, and I included it in my original comment. The article in question qualifies as appropriate material, which is where diego is incorrect.
Even experienced people are not infallible; everyone makes mistakes.
> There is a limit on appropriate material...and I included it in my original comment.
I'm sorry, but I don't buy it -- "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" is not a limit at all as it can be extended to literally everything depending on where each person's curiosity lies.
I didn't downvote you, but I'm not sure this is a helpful comment. I flagged the story because I think that's a much more useful and direct way to express that you don't think a certain story belongs on this site. And I realize I'm being a hypocrite here, but the only thing worse than off-topic stories is lengthy debates over what is and is not off-topic.
(And, incidentally, the stories on HN tend to get rather off-topic over the weekend when, I imagine, much of its core user base is not checking the site. I wouldn't sweat it too much.)
1) different things get to the front page on the weekends
2) this covers a bunch of stuff that is deeply interesting to hackers. Anonymous information sharing; secret information sharing; some way of having signed but anonymous information sent from the field to an office.
"Of interest to hackers" is the metric. HN isn't about hacking, or startups; it's for hackers working on startups. The distinction is fine, but it exists.
>Edit: if you downvote, please reply too.
Why do you care about downvotes? Are you actually checking your comment score?
I assume this is so the community can at least have the discussion, rather than him being downvoted into oblivion by the same folks who upvoted the this article to the top spot.
I just downvoted you. I assume you don't mind.