And despite how I feel about the US and Israel's government I do have my head straight: regime change in Iran would be a 1000x better outcome than any of your suggestions. And for everyone, by the way. For Trump. For Netanyahu. For Europe. For gulf countries. For Americans. For Europeans. For Bahraini, Emirati, Qatari, Saudi AND for Iranians.
The problem is that empirically regime changes very rarely lead to stable liberal democracies. Yeah, a magical societal transformation according to exactly our standards sounds great to us. But that is not how this is going to end.
But who is there to say that liberal democracies are the desired end of goal for all states? That is the problem with liberal democracies it has very little tolerance for almost any other kind of system.
How many wars in recent history waged in the name of liberal democracies and freedom?
But who is there to say that liberal democracies are the desired end of goal for all states ...
Everyone. That's the essence of democracy. It quite literally is what everyone wants.
How many wars in recent history waged in the name of liberal democracies and freedom?
Zero? I guess you mean things like the Iran war, if we disregard entirely that Iran has been attacking almost literally everyone, including the US, but also including, uh, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Turkey, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, ... they attacked fucking Argentina (look at the map, then tell me how ridiculous that is, then check wikipedia to see they did indeed attack Argentina)
Sorry I mean "exporting the revolution", with little or not explanation as to why this particular export required killing 600000 Syrian civilians, and certainly 2 million people total.
What I just can't understand is why tankies support Iran. I mean, how can you get less communist than Iran? I mean is it the words they use and the propaganda? Idiots.
Given a choice I would rather live in democratic systems - but to say that everyone wants democratic systems tell you are not as exposed as you think you are. There are many failed democracies which resulted in highly bloated and corrupt governments, and these tend to make the situation worse. And there are many states running alternative governance system with success.
When you are saying everyone, you are basically projecting your liberal values on others and you are convinced they are superior and that is why it is dangerous.
Regarding wars - Iran, Iraq, Libya, and many other examples (coups) were initiated in the name of liberty and freedom. And notice that all those countries are rich in oil.
Regarding Iran specifically, you won't understand until you study the Shai's faith and history which I'm sure you don't have any knowledge or understanding of.
Given a choice I would rather live in democratic systems - but to say that everyone wants democratic systems tell you are not as exposed as you think you are ...
Nope, just old. Like 40s old. I'm afraid I'm someone who thinks that either people want democracy, or just haven't been anywhere near an actual undemocratic system, haven't seen what happens.
In reality, either people are (a minimum level of) liberal (voluntarily or "because otherwise I'd get arrested"), or they live under constant violence. Those are the only choices, and the way that works for people like tankies or some religious lunatics is that they've never seen up close what violence does on even a medium scale. In other words, the way it works for them, maybe for you, is that it's a fantasy. Not fundamentally different from what I'd loved to have done with Sarah Michelle Gellar, when even back then she was probably way too old for me.
And yeah your conspiracy theories about oil. THE war about liberty and freedom was Afghanistan. You might notice: no oil.
So yeah I'm one of those really irritating old guys that tells you even you want freedom and democracy, even if you think differently. It's not the only thing you want, and of course you now think you want your little fantasy more, but that will disappear forever the first time a police officer shows you what happens when they decide to use violence against someone you know.
The Iranian people will never come out to protest again in masses after how the US betrayed them.
The president said "help is on its way", live on TV, they hijacked radio and tv signals in Iran to broadcast it to as many people as possible.
The people of Iran went out and got slaughtered like cattle.
You think the mothers who lost their sons and daughters, be it us soldiers or Iranians, will just forget that their children died because of an illegal, unnecessary war that was planned by political idiots in a signal group?
Thousands of innocent souls died in this war because the US President is an idiot and a liar. The US citizens are held hostage just as much as the Iranian citizens. It’s not the people’s fault. It’s horrible leadership.
No help was sent, instead, the inability of the US army to end this war put the US into a position where the regime in Teheran will come out infinitely stronger than before the war. They indeed have "all the cards".
Khamenei is not threatening to end the Iranian civilisation and bombing drinking water facilities. It’s the aggressor, the United States of America. They are just missing the R before the US.
The best outcome for the rest of the world is not regime change in Iran. It’s regime change in Washington. Preferably non-violent.
You think the mothers who lost their sons and daughters, be it us soldiers or Iranians, will just forget that their children died because of an illegal, unnecessary war that was planned by political idiots in a signal group?
I think mothers who saw their children get shot will blame the people shooting. Ie. their own country, the IRGC.
No, because they want to know why this happened, and if they had a chance to prevent it, and getting shot by the IRCG is just the consequence of doing what someone else expected of them.
Go out and protest and I will bring you freedom and peace and prosperity. That was the promise these kids counted on. They paid for those lies in blood.
That blood is on the president’s hands just as much as it is on the hands of the IRCG commanders giving the orders and their henchmen pulling the trigger and you can bet every family who lost someone in this war knows that.
Every Iranian I talk to says everyone knew the risks. Everyone who went protesting even pointed out that they were still killing protestors one-by-one from the "woman, life, freedom" protests and Masha Amini from before, in a much worse way. You know, beating them up daily for a few years, raping the women they're executing first, sometimes the men too. You know, what allah commands according to the ayatollahs.
Iran has been killing protestors for 50 years. Executing their communist allies from their side was almost the first thing khomeini did, and they have never stopped since. The two girls from the famous revolution photo, one was executed by the regime she was celebrating.
But everyone knew EXACTLY what the government would do about the protests.
One Iranian I know said they kill a large number of protestors "every 2 years". So even the basic premise of this thread is totally wrong. The IRGC has mass-killed protestors about 25 times before this protest. That didn't stop the protestors, just like 24 times didn't stop them.
Now they have killed protestors 26 times. That currently stops people, but it won't stop them for long either.
Liberal ideology will crush anyone and anything that stands on it's way until nothing left but total inner destructions, the west is imploding from within with their OnlyFans subscribers and decaying family and cultural values, yet they condemn anything and anyone who show different stance.
Of course there are people who are unhappy with the government, and guess what, there are people unhappy in the US too, but Canada and Mexico doesn't go and arm those people, and if they did, I would be more than certain that the US police and military will slaughter them all.
All the countries you mentioned are nothing but proxy to the US empire and their military complex, and anyone with little knowledge of geopolitics understands this.
Was regime change in Iraq and Afghanistan worth it despite how bad their governments were? Even the party of Bush & Cheney seems to think that was a bad idea and Trump ran on no more wars in the ME.
The problem with that is that certainly for Afghanistan, you know it's easy to talk to Afghans in Europe these days.
They are angry that Afghanistan was left behind and are absolutely overwhelmingly of the opinion that regime change was worth it.
Now if you ask people in the US if it was worth the cost? That's a different story. The world order effectively depends on free access to the sea and so Afghanistan ... it was never, and will never, work economically. So was it "worth it" in dollars? No. And it won't ever be.
If you ask Europeans who insist they "contributed" to the Afghanistan invasion ... well let's just say I've seen several discussions between Afghans and Europeans about whether it was worth it. Those discussions don't work out very well. Afghans are angry not more was done, Europeans retort that a lot was done and it cost too much (the Europeans discussing never actually contributed anything to the effort, of course. Their argument boils down to that they "gave up" government spending (unemployment contributions, education, ...) for Afghanistan and got nothing back)
... and of course tankies believe islamist propaganda. On marxist.com there was literally published that "If Iran wins this war they will complete the revolution and finally we'll get true communism". I mean, read the site, it regularly has, shall we say, questionable logic. But that one, my jaw hit the floor.
Comments
Regime change in Israel or the US.
Or regime change in Iran ...
And despite how I feel about the US and Israel's government I do have my head straight: regime change in Iran would be a 1000x better outcome than any of your suggestions. And for everyone, by the way. For Trump. For Netanyahu. For Europe. For gulf countries. For Americans. For Europeans. For Bahraini, Emirati, Qatari, Saudi AND for Iranians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNTSiF6zujc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l7Y4HGxhQs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntWwfuvQqrQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGke_pPoNUg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRevVRMHA4c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxZYxzJJXrE
DOWN with khamenei!
I'd be delighted to replace the current Iranian regime with a less awful collection of people.
I have seen no plans which looked like they might make this happen.
The problem is that empirically regime changes very rarely lead to stable liberal democracies. Yeah, a magical societal transformation according to exactly our standards sounds great to us. But that is not how this is going to end.
But who is there to say that liberal democracies are the desired end of goal for all states? That is the problem with liberal democracies it has very little tolerance for almost any other kind of system.
How many wars in recent history waged in the name of liberal democracies and freedom?
Everyone. That's the essence of democracy. It quite literally is what everyone wants.
Zero? I guess you mean things like the Iran war, if we disregard entirely that Iran has been attacking almost literally everyone, including the US, but also including, uh, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Turkey, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, ... they attacked fucking Argentina (look at the map, then tell me how ridiculous that is, then check wikipedia to see they did indeed attack Argentina)
Sorry I mean "exporting the revolution", with little or not explanation as to why this particular export required killing 600000 Syrian civilians, and certainly 2 million people total.
What I just can't understand is why tankies support Iran. I mean, how can you get less communist than Iran? I mean is it the words they use and the propaganda? Idiots.
Given a choice I would rather live in democratic systems - but to say that everyone wants democratic systems tell you are not as exposed as you think you are. There are many failed democracies which resulted in highly bloated and corrupt governments, and these tend to make the situation worse. And there are many states running alternative governance system with success.
When you are saying everyone, you are basically projecting your liberal values on others and you are convinced they are superior and that is why it is dangerous.
Regarding wars - Iran, Iraq, Libya, and many other examples (coups) were initiated in the name of liberty and freedom. And notice that all those countries are rich in oil.
Regarding Iran specifically, you won't understand until you study the Shai's faith and history which I'm sure you don't have any knowledge or understanding of.
Nope, just old. Like 40s old. I'm afraid I'm someone who thinks that either people want democracy, or just haven't been anywhere near an actual undemocratic system, haven't seen what happens.
In reality, either people are (a minimum level of) liberal (voluntarily or "because otherwise I'd get arrested"), or they live under constant violence. Those are the only choices, and the way that works for people like tankies or some religious lunatics is that they've never seen up close what violence does on even a medium scale. In other words, the way it works for them, maybe for you, is that it's a fantasy. Not fundamentally different from what I'd loved to have done with Sarah Michelle Gellar, when even back then she was probably way too old for me.
And yeah your conspiracy theories about oil. THE war about liberty and freedom was Afghanistan. You might notice: no oil.
So yeah I'm one of those really irritating old guys that tells you even you want freedom and democracy, even if you think differently. It's not the only thing you want, and of course you now think you want your little fantasy more, but that will disappear forever the first time a police officer shows you what happens when they decide to use violence against someone you know.
I'm about the same age and I grew up in those systems you mentioned and now living in liberal democracy.
Thinking about it, I think you are right. I think I got used to not worry about being under constant threat/violence.
We don’t seem to live in the same universe.
The Iranian people will never come out to protest again in masses after how the US betrayed them.
The president said "help is on its way", live on TV, they hijacked radio and tv signals in Iran to broadcast it to as many people as possible.
The people of Iran went out and got slaughtered like cattle.
You think the mothers who lost their sons and daughters, be it us soldiers or Iranians, will just forget that their children died because of an illegal, unnecessary war that was planned by political idiots in a signal group?
Thousands of innocent souls died in this war because the US President is an idiot and a liar. The US citizens are held hostage just as much as the Iranian citizens. It’s not the people’s fault. It’s horrible leadership.
No help was sent, instead, the inability of the US army to end this war put the US into a position where the regime in Teheran will come out infinitely stronger than before the war. They indeed have "all the cards".
Khamenei is not threatening to end the Iranian civilisation and bombing drinking water facilities. It’s the aggressor, the United States of America. They are just missing the R before the US.
The best outcome for the rest of the world is not regime change in Iran. It’s regime change in Washington. Preferably non-violent.
I think mothers who saw their children get shot will blame the people shooting. Ie. their own country, the IRGC.
No, because they want to know why this happened, and if they had a chance to prevent it, and getting shot by the IRCG is just the consequence of doing what someone else expected of them.
Go out and protest and I will bring you freedom and peace and prosperity. That was the promise these kids counted on. They paid for those lies in blood.
That blood is on the president’s hands just as much as it is on the hands of the IRCG commanders giving the orders and their henchmen pulling the trigger and you can bet every family who lost someone in this war knows that.
Every Iranian I talk to says everyone knew the risks. Everyone who went protesting even pointed out that they were still killing protestors one-by-one from the "woman, life, freedom" protests and Masha Amini from before, in a much worse way. You know, beating them up daily for a few years, raping the women they're executing first, sometimes the men too. You know, what allah commands according to the ayatollahs.
Iran has been killing protestors for 50 years. Executing their communist allies from their side was almost the first thing khomeini did, and they have never stopped since. The two girls from the famous revolution photo, one was executed by the regime she was celebrating.
But everyone knew EXACTLY what the government would do about the protests.
One Iranian I know said they kill a large number of protestors "every 2 years". So even the basic premise of this thread is totally wrong. The IRGC has mass-killed protestors about 25 times before this protest. That didn't stop the protestors, just like 24 times didn't stop them.
Now they have killed protestors 26 times. That currently stops people, but it won't stop them for long either.
Liberal ideology will crush anyone and anything that stands on it's way until nothing left but total inner destructions, the west is imploding from within with their OnlyFans subscribers and decaying family and cultural values, yet they condemn anything and anyone who show different stance.
Of course there are people who are unhappy with the government, and guess what, there are people unhappy in the US too, but Canada and Mexico doesn't go and arm those people, and if they did, I would be more than certain that the US police and military will slaughter them all.
All the countries you mentioned are nothing but proxy to the US empire and their military complex, and anyone with little knowledge of geopolitics understands this.
Was regime change in Iraq and Afghanistan worth it despite how bad their governments were? Even the party of Bush & Cheney seems to think that was a bad idea and Trump ran on no more wars in the ME.
The problem with that is that certainly for Afghanistan, you know it's easy to talk to Afghans in Europe these days.
They are angry that Afghanistan was left behind and are absolutely overwhelmingly of the opinion that regime change was worth it.
Now if you ask people in the US if it was worth the cost? That's a different story. The world order effectively depends on free access to the sea and so Afghanistan ... it was never, and will never, work economically. So was it "worth it" in dollars? No. And it won't ever be.
If you ask Europeans who insist they "contributed" to the Afghanistan invasion ... well let's just say I've seen several discussions between Afghans and Europeans about whether it was worth it. Those discussions don't work out very well. Afghans are angry not more was done, Europeans retort that a lot was done and it cost too much (the Europeans discussing never actually contributed anything to the effort, of course. Their argument boils down to that they "gave up" government spending (unemployment contributions, education, ...) for Afghanistan and got nothing back)
... and of course tankies believe islamist propaganda. On marxist.com there was literally published that "If Iran wins this war they will complete the revolution and finally we'll get true communism". I mean, read the site, it regularly has, shall we say, questionable logic. But that one, my jaw hit the floor.