This is actually an important lesson for game designers. Real randomness is very frustrating for players! Games should be designed to not be random. For example, there's an expansion to The Settlers of Catan that lets you use cards instead of dice to ensure a nice smooth distribution of resources... I think it's a lot more fun!
Oh yes. Our intuition is that random is fair and uniform, but it's absolutely not.
I was bit by another random quirk in World of Warcraft. There was a long-running achievement called "What a Strange Long Journey it has Been", which took at least a year in real-time to complete, and you had to actively play during each of the ten or so in-game festivals and holidays, and do some quests and tasks during each. If you missed a festival, you had to wait another year to do it again, so if you were aiming for the achievement, you really wanted to do it in one go.
During their version of Valentine's, each player got a bag of heart-shaped candy, and the task you had to complete was to pull out at least one each of the eight different heart candies. But you could only pull a piece of candy once every hour or so, each time you pulled a piece you had a 1/8 chance to get a certain piece, but the holiday was time-limited, so you had about two weeks to complete it.
Sounds easy and fair, right? 1/8 chance, get all eight pieces, two whole weeks, easy! Except that there was one piece that I just never got. The piece that said "I LOVE YOU!". And as the time went by, I got more and more frantic, logged in more often so as not to miss any opportunity to pull a piece of candy, but no luck.
So, I did a quick bit of math. You can pull one piece every hour for two weeks, but sleeping, not playing, missing days etc, meant that I effectively pulled ~100 pieces. The chance of missing a certain piece is 7/8, so missing a certain piece 100 times in a row is (7/8)^100, which is roughly a little bit more than one in a million.
With ten million players all doing the same thing, there's going to be a number of them that will hit that "one in a million" chance, which means that whoever designed that part of the achievement didn't do their homework, didn't do the math. Because intuition tells you that 1/8 chance is plenty! Hundreds of tries, of course everyone will get all pieces! Except proper math tells you otherwise, and I was one of the "lucky" outliers.
(Later, they apologized and retroactively removed that part of the achievement, so I got my purple nether-drake mount without having to wait a year extra.)
So, I did a quick bit of math. You can pull one piece every hour for two weeks, but sleeping, not playing, missing days etc, meant that I effectively pulled ~100 pieces. The chance of missing a certain piece is 7/8, so missing a certain piece 100 times in a row is (7/8)^100, which is roughly a little bit more than one in a million.
The chance of failure would be 8 times that much because there are 8 pieces you could miss, which comes to about 12.7 per million.
Yes, but they're not independent. Given that you missed piece X, the probability that any one piece it's piece Y it's 1/7, not 1/8, so the chance of missing both X and Y it's lower than the product of their individual probabilities.
This is an example of a problem called the Coupon Collector problem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupon_collector%27s_problem). Short version is that the expected value of number of pulls you'll need to collect all of the coupons (candy in this case) is nln(n), or about 16 pulls in this case. Of course some people are just going to be unlucky (as you demonstrated).
> Oh yes. Our intuition is that random is fair and uniform, but it's absolutely not.
But a uniform distribution is random, isn't it? This sort of phrasing is rampant in this thread, and I'm confused by it. How can a uniform distribution be considered non-random, or "less" random than another distribution?
Randomness is about having a uniform probability of results, but that does not translate into a uniform distribution of results, nor can it, because of the de-correlation between random results. Specifically, the chance of getting the same result multiple times is non-zero, and actually can be fairly high with a lot of samples, whereas the chance of duplicate results in a uniform distribution is zero.
Randomness is about having a uniform probability of results
Well, you're still assuming the colloquial definition of "random," which implies "uniformly random." Of course, we can have a random process that is not uniformly random.
I can't tell if you're trolling or not. In case you aren't, a uniform distribution isn't "uniform" in the sense of the above quotation. You're right that it's not less random, but someone looking at draws from a uniform distribution would normally describe it as "clumpy"; hence the article.
A little randomness is good, it keeps the experience from being monotonous, but there is a balance between uncontrollable and unpredictable annoyance and quirky interesting outlier behavior. A lot of why WoW did so well was because it often walked the fine line, and it did it everywhere. In that game crafting had percent chances of giving skillups, you had to level weapon skills with a percent chance per hit of getting a point, you had critical % chance, hit % chance, dodge %, parry %, block %, you had talents that gave you % procs for special effects. Tremendous amounts of RNG that most people never even noticed but kept them playing for so long in many respects.
I can think of two specific examples where breaking the rules of probability resulted in better player experience:
In tf2, you randomly get weapon drops, up to a limit per week. The initial obvious solution was to randomly roll if they get a new weapon every X minutes of gameplay. This lead to players getting long unlucky streaks where they got little to no gameplay. They eventually changed it to when you get a weapon drop, it rolls to see how long you have to play until you get a new weapon. Players can be unlucky still, but it's drastically better.
The other example was in civilization they showed percentage chances of winning a battle. The problem is that when a player would have three battles with say a 50% chance of winning and lost them all, they would get very frustrated. So they changed it to be much more like the average person perceives statistics to be. This means actually weighting the percentages differently from what the player is told so that if a player has a third of a chance to win each of three battles, it's actually very likely they will win one of them.
The other example was in civilization they showed percentage chances of winning a battle. ... This means actually weighting the percentages differently from what the player is told
This is a (persistent) myth. None of the Civilization games actually do this. Civilization 4 is the only game in the series that displays combat prediction as a percentage chance, and the source code for Civ 4's combat engine is publicly released and well understood. (I am a developer on a Civ 4 modding project and familiar with the code.) The earlier Civ games before 4 don't display any kind of combat odds, and Civ 5 has a totally different system that isn't based on winning percentage. So, unless you're talking about some other game like Galactic Civilizations or a mod for Civilization 4, this isn't true.
Your underlying point is certainly true, though: gameplay often is perceived as a better experience with "randomness" smoothed out to produce more uniformly distributed results.
This is a gross oversimplification. Randomness in games is like a knife. It can be used to make nice things, or to hurt.
Wesnoth is a good example of a game which is frustrating for many people. I think the reason is that it has randomoutcomes of decisions. Suppose you order a unit to attack another one. There's a base 0.6 chance to hit. The unit has 3 attacks each dealing 12 damage. What is the expected damage output ?
...so, if you're planning for the most common event - 24 damage - you're a fool, because it occurs only 43% of the time, less than half ! A bit like democracy, which is sometimes called tyranny of the minority. The example I used is actually simplified. In Wesnoth, each strike of an attack is followed by a counter-strike from the attacked unit. Not only the attacker's damage varies wildly, you can easily lose the unit without having it deal any damage. And such a random result when you make a good decision.
Counterexamples: Neuroshima Hex (board game), Seasons (board game), Mission in Space: Lost Colony (flash game). In all of these games randomness is used to improve variety. In MIS there's actually little randomness and it feels more like a puzzle. The most visible effect of randomness in the game is randomly chosen alien spawned. All 3 aliens have the same HP and movement speed, so it's not a big deal. Seasons is a card and dice game, but an unusual one. Each side of dice gives some options to choose and there are no good or bad sides, there only good or bad sides at this very moment. The cards you start with are not really random either, because the game uses draft mechanic: you take one card from your hand and pass your hand to your neighbor on the left. NeuroshimaHex is essentially a game with hexagonal cards. Randomness only determines what cards you draw, and once you do you place the hex-cards on the board. Once the battle resolves, it's deterministic.
The bottom line: I noticed that I much more enjoy games where randomness is used not to determine success/failure, but instead options available. That is, as long as the options are balanced relative to each other. Heroes of Might and Magic 3 has randomly selected spells and skills at levelup, but they range from awesome to pathetic. The result is frustration.
All of the games I mentioned (Except Heroes 3) are free. You can actually play both board games online, too.
24 damage happens 64% of the time, not 43%. Given that you can't use your spare attack elsewhere, the 3x damage even includes the pathway of the 2x damage event.
Another classic example of this randomness-pain is earlier versions of the Civ series, where you could lose tanks against pikemen or other ancient unit types. Not likely, but it hurt when it happened.
I was under the impression that a uniform distribution is still considered random, but that there are simply many other random distributions. If you have a flat 1/10 chance of receiving a certain item, then sure, you might do the task 30 times without getting it. But if it were programmed such that you will always receive the item at some point within the first 10 completions of the task (i.e. 10% of players receive it after their first completion, 10% after their second completion, etc.) I would still consider that random, and not really more or less random than the 1/10 scenario. I'm not sure what you mean by "real randomness."
I can give you one simple argument. Ten items shuffled have 10! entropy, while ten independent rolls have 10^10 entropy. How is that not far less random?
The distinction is between independent identically distributed random variables, where it's possible to not get the item after 1/p tries, and what you described, which the events are not identically distributed. In the case you describe, the probability you'll get an item when you have a second completion is 1/9, not 1/10.
This is the distinction that the original article highlighted and gives rise to the Poisson distribution, which can have unintuitive results because it is not a uniform distribution. You are describing a uniform distribution. (A Poisson distribution characterizes the number of hits you would expect after running some number of iid random events.)
Blizzard actually did this in Warcraft 3, the chance of getting a Critical Strike or related effect went up every time you failed, and down every time you succeeded.
Real randomness is very frustrating for players! Games should be designed to not be random.
This reminds me of Magic: the Gathering and the misery of mana screw.
I disagree with the uniform "should be", because there are so many different design objectives. Slot machines aren't "good games" by Euro standards, but people spend a lot of money on them. (One can argue about whether that's enjoyment or addiction. I'll skip that for now.) Random payoffs can foster enjoyment, as seen in Skinner Boxes and on slot machines. Random denial makes people unhappy. What you want in most games is some degree of random windfall but no one getting "killed by the dice".
Have you played Ambition, by chance? It's a trick-taking card game designed to remove card luck.
> This reminds me of Magic: the Gathering and the misery of mana screw.
Incidentally, apparently people complain about the online versions of the game providing a land distribution that's "too even".
Also, while mana screw sucks, between the fact that you can decide whether or not to begin with a certain opening hand and the fact that you can design your deck around such circumstances (mana fixing, proper distribution of card costs), it's far more fun than the alternative.
Incidentally, apparently people complain about the online versions of the game providing a land distribution that's "too even".
Online bridge has a similar problem. Four riffle shuffles (which does not fully randomize hands) is typical in bridge games, and this means that long suits (and, thus, better hands) are more common. Early online bridge games randomized hands fully and therefore delivered crappier (flatter) hands than people were typically used to.
between the fact that you can decide whether or not to begin with a certain opening hand and the fact that you can design your deck around such circumstances (mana fixing, proper distribution of card costs), it's far more fun than the alternative.
When I played (mid-90s) a lot of those options didn't exist. There weren't mulligans unless you had no land. With one, you had to play it. Also, a lot of the newer mana sources didn't exist. If you drew only 2 lands in your first 10 cards, you were screwed, but you couldn't develop an interesting deck with more than 22 land.
Eh, you'd design your deck around low-mana-cost cards, figuring that most of it had to work with 2-3 lands and the higher-casting-cost cards had to be used sparingly.
One of my favorite decks was an all-common blue/red control deck with 28 land, made so that I could bring it into school and not worry about it getting stolen. It was maddening to play against - I'd be like "Okay, I'll flood 3 of your creatures, block your knight with my clay statue, and counterspell your disenchant." Typically games would run 40 turns with nobody doing any damage, and then all of a sudden I'd be like "...and I'll Lava Burst you for 20. Game over." Or the Storm Shaman would come out around turn 10, by that time it's 5/4 and I've got enough mana to counterspell any attempts to remove it, and the game is over in 4 turns. Land can be devastatingly effective with cards made to take advantage of it.
> Land can be devastatingly effective with cards made to take advantage of it.
One of my favorite decks is loosely based on a 5-color preconstructed deck from the Apocalypse era - it's basically almost all mana fixing, with a few cards that take advantage of multiple colors, and then four "Life/Death"s[1]
All that time you spent doing nothing but playing land-generating spells suddenly pays off when you can attack with twenty 1/1 creatures in a single turn, then declare them unblockable[2] and rinse and repeat the next turn[3].
It's even better because land-destruction spells are much rarer (and more costly), so you're impervious to Wrath-of-God[4]-eque spells.
I don't know exactly how they model shuffling, but I know that some players dislike truly random hands, which is why it's considered improper and impolite to do more than 4 shuffles.
This may actually be somewhat of a myth. I haven't verified it myself. I do know that Bridge protocol is 4 riffle shuffles, and typical riffle shuffles don't have enough entropy for 4 of them to randomize the deck (52! ~ 2^225.6, so you'd need 56.4 bits for each, and riffle shuffles have about 30 bits) but I find it hard to envision why this (possibly slight) lack of randomness would manifest itself in higher frequencies of good hands.
I think you're committing a Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. Yes, people are designing their decks around mana screw. In other words - they discard all those decks ideas that suffer more from randomness. Also remember mana screw works both ways. Later in the game getting a streak of lands when you no longer need them can be disastrous. Your opponent can draw juicy cards instead.
Have you actually tried the alternatives ? There's a trivial variant of M:tG where you can play any card face down to act as a land.
You have a point, though - constructing a deck in M:tG is far more fun than playing one.
> Have you actually tried the alternatives ? There's a trivial variant of M:tG where you can play any card face down to act as a land.
That's not really eliminating randomness, since you're just evaluating (at runtime) whether or not a given card is more valuable as a mana source or at face value. There's still some randomness in determining how high the opportunity cost of playing a land is.
A better example of nonrandomness - which I have considered playing with my friends - is enforcing an even mana draw by increasing access to mana each turn in a manner proportional to the number of lands in the deck. That's deterministic.
> You have a point, though - constructing a deck in M:tG is far more fun than playing one.
I've been playing Magic: The Gathering for far longer than I should admit, and I'd disagree.
The thing about slot machines though, aside from the fact that the pay outs are not uniformly random, is that they're designed to have tons of almost-wins, i.e. "bar bar cherry". You think you're "so close" to having won that you think if you just try a couple times more, you'll really get it. This goes so far as to program the motors for the wheels to have a specific wobble, so they flip over from a winning combo to a losing one at the last second.
That's interesting but then we're talking about another game. If there's a pack of cards indicating dice results you can have the equivalent of a 'warm deck' and a 'cold deck'.
Players can then start counting. E.g.: I know '8' came out 7 times and '6' only came out once, then it changes my strategy because there's a benefit to expand with a new settlement (or make a "city") on an '6' instead of an '8'.
I'm not against it: it's interesting. But it's not really the Settlers of Catan anymore: it's a game which happens to share a lot of rules with the Settlers of Catan but which is definitely different.
They mitigate that by discarding without looking several of the cards, so it's not a completely even distribution of outcomes. E.g., it's possible that 4 of the '6's won't come out at all that time through the deck.
Comments
This is actually an important lesson for game designers. Real randomness is very frustrating for players! Games should be designed to not be random. For example, there's an expansion to The Settlers of Catan that lets you use cards instead of dice to ensure a nice smooth distribution of resources... I think it's a lot more fun!
Oh yes. Our intuition is that random is fair and uniform, but it's absolutely not.
I was bit by another random quirk in World of Warcraft. There was a long-running achievement called "What a Strange Long Journey it has Been", which took at least a year in real-time to complete, and you had to actively play during each of the ten or so in-game festivals and holidays, and do some quests and tasks during each. If you missed a festival, you had to wait another year to do it again, so if you were aiming for the achievement, you really wanted to do it in one go.
During their version of Valentine's, each player got a bag of heart-shaped candy, and the task you had to complete was to pull out at least one each of the eight different heart candies. But you could only pull a piece of candy once every hour or so, each time you pulled a piece you had a 1/8 chance to get a certain piece, but the holiday was time-limited, so you had about two weeks to complete it.
Sounds easy and fair, right? 1/8 chance, get all eight pieces, two whole weeks, easy! Except that there was one piece that I just never got. The piece that said "I LOVE YOU!". And as the time went by, I got more and more frantic, logged in more often so as not to miss any opportunity to pull a piece of candy, but no luck.
So, I did a quick bit of math. You can pull one piece every hour for two weeks, but sleeping, not playing, missing days etc, meant that I effectively pulled ~100 pieces. The chance of missing a certain piece is 7/8, so missing a certain piece 100 times in a row is (7/8)^100, which is roughly a little bit more than one in a million.
With ten million players all doing the same thing, there's going to be a number of them that will hit that "one in a million" chance, which means that whoever designed that part of the achievement didn't do their homework, didn't do the math. Because intuition tells you that 1/8 chance is plenty! Hundreds of tries, of course everyone will get all pieces! Except proper math tells you otherwise, and I was one of the "lucky" outliers.
(Later, they apologized and retroactively removed that part of the achievement, so I got my purple nether-drake mount without having to wait a year extra.)
So, I did a quick bit of math. You can pull one piece every hour for two weeks, but sleeping, not playing, missing days etc, meant that I effectively pulled ~100 pieces. The chance of missing a certain piece is 7/8, so missing a certain piece 100 times in a row is (7/8)^100, which is roughly a little bit more than one in a million.
The chance of failure would be 8 times that much because there are 8 pieces you could miss, which comes to about 12.7 per million.
You couldn't possibly miss all 8 pieces. As soon as you make one attempt you'll get one piece.
Henrik's math calculated the chance of missing the "I love you" piece each time. The chance of missing any one other piece each time is the same.
Yes, but they're not independent. Given that you missed piece X, the probability that any one piece it's piece Y it's 1/7, not 1/8, so the chance of missing both X and Y it's lower than the product of their individual probabilities.
'missing each of 8 pieces individually' is not 'missing a certain piece'.
This is an example of a problem called the Coupon Collector problem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupon_collector%27s_problem). Short version is that the expected value of number of pulls you'll need to collect all of the coupons (candy in this case) is nln(n), or about 16 pulls in this case. Of course some people are just going to be unlucky (as you demonstrated).
> Oh yes. Our intuition is that random is fair and uniform, but it's absolutely not.
But a uniform distribution is random, isn't it? This sort of phrasing is rampant in this thread, and I'm confused by it. How can a uniform distribution be considered non-random, or "less" random than another distribution?
Randomness is about having a uniform probability of results, but that does not translate into a uniform distribution of results, nor can it, because of the de-correlation between random results. Specifically, the chance of getting the same result multiple times is non-zero, and actually can be fairly high with a lot of samples, whereas the chance of duplicate results in a uniform distribution is zero.
Read the article for more details and examples.
Randomness is about having a uniform probability of results
Well, you're still assuming the colloquial definition of "random," which implies "uniformly random." Of course, we can have a random process that is not uniformly random.
I can't tell if you're trolling or not. In case you aren't, a uniform distribution isn't "uniform" in the sense of the above quotation. You're right that it's not less random, but someone looking at draws from a uniform distribution would normally describe it as "clumpy"; hence the article.
A distribution is the probability of various values before the random selection takes place. Uniformity is what we do or don't see afterward.
The results of a uniform distribution, applied randomly a large number of times are less uniform than intuition predicts.
If you had bothered to read the article, your questions would have been answered.
As a completer of the "what a long strange trip its been" ( http://www.wowhead.com/achievement=2144/what-a-long-strange-... ), fuck Halloween.
A little randomness is good, it keeps the experience from being monotonous, but there is a balance between uncontrollable and unpredictable annoyance and quirky interesting outlier behavior. A lot of why WoW did so well was because it often walked the fine line, and it did it everywhere. In that game crafting had percent chances of giving skillups, you had to level weapon skills with a percent chance per hit of getting a point, you had critical % chance, hit % chance, dodge %, parry %, block %, you had talents that gave you % procs for special effects. Tremendous amounts of RNG that most people never even noticed but kept them playing for so long in many respects.
I can think of two specific examples where breaking the rules of probability resulted in better player experience: In tf2, you randomly get weapon drops, up to a limit per week. The initial obvious solution was to randomly roll if they get a new weapon every X minutes of gameplay. This lead to players getting long unlucky streaks where they got little to no gameplay. They eventually changed it to when you get a weapon drop, it rolls to see how long you have to play until you get a new weapon. Players can be unlucky still, but it's drastically better.
The other example was in civilization they showed percentage chances of winning a battle. The problem is that when a player would have three battles with say a 50% chance of winning and lost them all, they would get very frustrated. So they changed it to be much more like the average person perceives statistics to be. This means actually weighting the percentages differently from what the player is told so that if a player has a third of a chance to win each of three battles, it's actually very likely they will win one of them.
The other example was in civilization they showed percentage chances of winning a battle. ... This means actually weighting the percentages differently from what the player is told
This is a (persistent) myth. None of the Civilization games actually do this. Civilization 4 is the only game in the series that displays combat prediction as a percentage chance, and the source code for Civ 4's combat engine is publicly released and well understood. (I am a developer on a Civ 4 modding project and familiar with the code.) The earlier Civ games before 4 don't display any kind of combat odds, and Civ 5 has a totally different system that isn't based on winning percentage. So, unless you're talking about some other game like Galactic Civilizations or a mod for Civilization 4, this isn't true.
Your underlying point is certainly true, though: gameplay often is perceived as a better experience with "randomness" smoothed out to produce more uniformly distributed results.
Ah, this is what made Risk so frustrating at times. Many a good friend was lost to that game.
This is a gross oversimplification. Randomness in games is like a knife. It can be used to make nice things, or to hurt.
Wesnoth is a good example of a game which is frustrating for many people. I think the reason is that it has random outcomes of decisions. Suppose you order a unit to attack another one. There's a base 0.6 chance to hit. The unit has 3 attacks each dealing 12 damage. What is the expected damage output ?
...so, if you're planning for the most common event - 24 damage - you're a fool, because it occurs only 43% of the time, less than half ! A bit like democracy, which is sometimes called tyranny of the minority. The example I used is actually simplified. In Wesnoth, each strike of an attack is followed by a counter-strike from the attacked unit. Not only the attacker's damage varies wildly, you can easily lose the unit without having it deal any damage. And such a random result when you make a good decision.Counterexamples: Neuroshima Hex (board game), Seasons (board game), Mission in Space: Lost Colony (flash game). In all of these games randomness is used to improve variety. In MIS there's actually little randomness and it feels more like a puzzle. The most visible effect of randomness in the game is randomly chosen alien spawned. All 3 aliens have the same HP and movement speed, so it's not a big deal. Seasons is a card and dice game, but an unusual one. Each side of dice gives some options to choose and there are no good or bad sides, there only good or bad sides at this very moment. The cards you start with are not really random either, because the game uses draft mechanic: you take one card from your hand and pass your hand to your neighbor on the left. Neuroshima Hex is essentially a game with hexagonal cards. Randomness only determines what cards you draw, and once you do you place the hex-cards on the board. Once the battle resolves, it's deterministic.
The bottom line: I noticed that I much more enjoy games where randomness is used not to determine success/failure, but instead options available. That is, as long as the options are balanced relative to each other. Heroes of Might and Magic 3 has randomly selected spells and skills at levelup, but they range from awesome to pathetic. The result is frustration.
All of the games I mentioned (Except Heroes 3) are free. You can actually play both board games online, too.
24 damage happens 64% of the time, not 43%. Given that you can't use your spare attack elsewhere, the 3x damage even includes the pathway of the 2x damage event.
Another classic example of this randomness-pain is earlier versions of the Civ series, where you could lose tanks against pikemen or other ancient unit types. Not likely, but it hurt when it happened.
I was under the impression that a uniform distribution is still considered random, but that there are simply many other random distributions. If you have a flat 1/10 chance of receiving a certain item, then sure, you might do the task 30 times without getting it. But if it were programmed such that you will always receive the item at some point within the first 10 completions of the task (i.e. 10% of players receive it after their first completion, 10% after their second completion, etc.) I would still consider that random, and not really more or less random than the 1/10 scenario. I'm not sure what you mean by "real randomness."
I can give you one simple argument. Ten items shuffled have 10! entropy, while ten independent rolls have 10^10 entropy. How is that not far less random?
Because amount of entropy has nothing to do with "amount of randomness."
I'm pretty sure that entropy is pretty much the only sane definition you could give of "amount of randomness".
> entropy is a measure of the uncertainty in a random variable
The distinction is between independent identically distributed random variables, where it's possible to not get the item after 1/p tries, and what you described, which the events are not identically distributed. In the case you describe, the probability you'll get an item when you have a second completion is 1/9, not 1/10.
This is the distinction that the original article highlighted and gives rise to the Poisson distribution, which can have unintuitive results because it is not a uniform distribution. You are describing a uniform distribution. (A Poisson distribution characterizes the number of hits you would expect after running some number of iid random events.)
Blizzard actually did this in Warcraft 3, the chance of getting a Critical Strike or related effect went up every time you failed, and down every time you succeeded.
Real randomness is very frustrating for players! Games should be designed to not be random.
This reminds me of Magic: the Gathering and the misery of mana screw.
I disagree with the uniform "should be", because there are so many different design objectives. Slot machines aren't "good games" by Euro standards, but people spend a lot of money on them. (One can argue about whether that's enjoyment or addiction. I'll skip that for now.) Random payoffs can foster enjoyment, as seen in Skinner Boxes and on slot machines. Random denial makes people unhappy. What you want in most games is some degree of random windfall but no one getting "killed by the dice".
Have you played Ambition, by chance? It's a trick-taking card game designed to remove card luck.
> This reminds me of Magic: the Gathering and the misery of mana screw.
Incidentally, apparently people complain about the online versions of the game providing a land distribution that's "too even".
Also, while mana screw sucks, between the fact that you can decide whether or not to begin with a certain opening hand and the fact that you can design your deck around such circumstances (mana fixing, proper distribution of card costs), it's far more fun than the alternative.
Incidentally, apparently people complain about the online versions of the game providing a land distribution that's "too even".
Online bridge has a similar problem. Four riffle shuffles (which does not fully randomize hands) is typical in bridge games, and this means that long suits (and, thus, better hands) are more common. Early online bridge games randomized hands fully and therefore delivered crappier (flatter) hands than people were typically used to.
between the fact that you can decide whether or not to begin with a certain opening hand and the fact that you can design your deck around such circumstances (mana fixing, proper distribution of card costs), it's far more fun than the alternative.
When I played (mid-90s) a lot of those options didn't exist. There weren't mulligans unless you had no land. With one, you had to play it. Also, a lot of the newer mana sources didn't exist. If you drew only 2 lands in your first 10 cards, you were screwed, but you couldn't develop an interesting deck with more than 22 land.
Eh, you'd design your deck around low-mana-cost cards, figuring that most of it had to work with 2-3 lands and the higher-casting-cost cards had to be used sparingly.
One of my favorite decks was an all-common blue/red control deck with 28 land, made so that I could bring it into school and not worry about it getting stolen. It was maddening to play against - I'd be like "Okay, I'll flood 3 of your creatures, block your knight with my clay statue, and counterspell your disenchant." Typically games would run 40 turns with nobody doing any damage, and then all of a sudden I'd be like "...and I'll Lava Burst you for 20. Game over." Or the Storm Shaman would come out around turn 10, by that time it's 5/4 and I've got enough mana to counterspell any attempts to remove it, and the game is over in 4 turns. Land can be devastatingly effective with cards made to take advantage of it.
> Land can be devastatingly effective with cards made to take advantage of it.
One of my favorite decks is loosely based on a 5-color preconstructed deck from the Apocalypse era - it's basically almost all mana fixing, with a few cards that take advantage of multiple colors, and then four "Life/Death"s[1]
All that time you spent doing nothing but playing land-generating spells suddenly pays off when you can attack with twenty 1/1 creatures in a single turn, then declare them unblockable[2] and rinse and repeat the next turn[3].
It's even better because land-destruction spells are much rarer (and more costly), so you're impervious to Wrath-of-God[4]-eque spells.
[1]http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiver...
[2]http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiver...
[3] If, by some miracle, they had enough life to survive, that is.
[4] http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiver...
> Early online bridge games randomized hands fully and therefore delivered crappier (flatter) hands than people were typically used to.
Are you saying that all online bridge games today do not fully randomize the shuffle, but simulate riffle shuffles instead?
I don't know exactly how they model shuffling, but I know that some players dislike truly random hands, which is why it's considered improper and impolite to do more than 4 shuffles.
This may actually be somewhat of a myth. I haven't verified it myself. I do know that Bridge protocol is 4 riffle shuffles, and typical riffle shuffles don't have enough entropy for 4 of them to randomize the deck (52! ~ 2^225.6, so you'd need 56.4 bits for each, and riffle shuffles have about 30 bits) but I find it hard to envision why this (possibly slight) lack of randomness would manifest itself in higher frequencies of good hands.
I think you're committing a Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. Yes, people are designing their decks around mana screw. In other words - they discard all those decks ideas that suffer more from randomness. Also remember mana screw works both ways. Later in the game getting a streak of lands when you no longer need them can be disastrous. Your opponent can draw juicy cards instead.
Have you actually tried the alternatives ? There's a trivial variant of M:tG where you can play any card face down to act as a land.
You have a point, though - constructing a deck in M:tG is far more fun than playing one.
> Have you actually tried the alternatives ? There's a trivial variant of M:tG where you can play any card face down to act as a land.
That's not really eliminating randomness, since you're just evaluating (at runtime) whether or not a given card is more valuable as a mana source or at face value. There's still some randomness in determining how high the opportunity cost of playing a land is.
A better example of nonrandomness - which I have considered playing with my friends - is enforcing an even mana draw by increasing access to mana each turn in a manner proportional to the number of lands in the deck. That's deterministic.
> You have a point, though - constructing a deck in M:tG is far more fun than playing one.
I've been playing Magic: The Gathering for far longer than I should admit, and I'd disagree.
The thing about slot machines though, aside from the fact that the pay outs are not uniformly random, is that they're designed to have tons of almost-wins, i.e. "bar bar cherry". You think you're "so close" to having won that you think if you just try a couple times more, you'll really get it. This goes so far as to program the motors for the wheels to have a specific wobble, so they flip over from a winning combo to a losing one at the last second.
That's interesting but then we're talking about another game. If there's a pack of cards indicating dice results you can have the equivalent of a 'warm deck' and a 'cold deck'.
Players can then start counting. E.g.: I know '8' came out 7 times and '6' only came out once, then it changes my strategy because there's a benefit to expand with a new settlement (or make a "city") on an '6' instead of an '8'.
I'm not against it: it's interesting. But it's not really the Settlers of Catan anymore: it's a game which happens to share a lot of rules with the Settlers of Catan but which is definitely different.
They mitigate that by discarding without looking several of the cards, so it's not a completely even distribution of outcomes. E.g., it's possible that 4 of the '6's won't come out at all that time through the deck.