I would have agreed with this a few years ago but it's more nuanced than that.
Commute time is built-in decompression time that can be very valuable. For example we have small kids and it's just not going to happen that I am going to tell my wife on a given morning or evening "take care of them while I go on a hike" or whatever.
So on days they I decide to go to the office - I get about 2 hours (one hour each way) of reading time (or podcast time, if I were driving in) which realistically would not materialize any other way.
I think many dads that are my fellow commuters see the commute as a sort of sacred solo space that's hard to maintain otherwise (eg the unspoken etiquette is if you see someone you know on the train you don't sit next to them so they can have their peace and quiet)
I understand your point completely, as I used to feel the same way in the past. Then I realized it's just that being forced to do a commute for work makes it OK to potentially put extra load on your spouse, or to leave your kids with some other caretaker, but this doesn't have to be this way. It should be fine to take some time if you need it even if there's no job-related reason behind it.
So now both my wife and myself take time for ourselves to get that decompression time when needed.
haha, when the weather is really bad, the bathroom with the lights off and headphones is great. Growing up with a single bathroom, a multi-bathroom home is just amazing.
I do wonder if having a single bathroom as a child played any part in my reasonably good grasp of concurrency control though!
I am materially not a morning person. I will push until the last second in the morning to get ready. Forcing myself to wake up an hour earlier to drive in, get my coffee and let it percolate did wonders for my morning productivity. WFH lacks that so instead I got a dog which makes me get up at the ass crack but it's still not like a good mental workout of commuting in rush hour on i95 in a 80's sedan
Of course she should (at least a couple days a week).
And culture already seems to acknowledge and expect that. We have the trope of mom taking a long bubble bath, for example.
"Man time" is usually portrayed as something we allow begrudgingly, like when he goes to the pub with the guys, or to watch sports, or to play video games. I rarely see quiet personal time portrayed as something men need or deserve.
I have never seen anyone with an actual spouse/family look at their partner and relationship through this weird adversarial-gender-struggle lens implied in your question.
It's hilarious to think that my wife would begrudge me a commute (I have to go to work) just because I am able to see something positive in it - anymore than I would resent my wife for having gone part time at work and placing more economic "burden" on me.
What you and your perspective are missing is that real families have a shared goal (raise the family) and the difference people flex in to make it happen.
If my wife texts me that the kids are down and she's going to bed early - while I am stuck at the airport because a work flight is 7 hours delayed - I am happy for her, not seeing this as cause for some insane resentment.
I have never seen anyone with an actual spouse/family look at their partner and relationship through this weird adversarial-gender-struggle lens implied in your question.
Then, you have never talked openly with women about their roles in society.
And, wow. Even the worst chauvinists admit some women feel they are put-upon in their marriages, but you claim these women are invisible.
Come on! Who is forcing whom here? Women traditionally bear many child-rearing duties and it's the "unemployed" spouse, whatever their sex, who stays at home to do household chores, and that's the way it is.
If anyone's forcing anyone, it's the employer and "the system" that conspire to force people into cars and onto the road for far too much of the workday. I didn't have children, but when I lived with family, friends, or significant other, I felt robbed. I felt robbed by my career because the commute was unpaid time, off-the-clock, where I was denied the time to be present, at home, with my loved ones, or doing chores, or hobbies. So, I was robbed; I wasn't forcing my girlfriend to cook or clean or be alone. I didn't have the agency to make that decision: it is made for me and all men like me.
When I drove a car, at least the commute was as fast as possible. When I ride public transit on a commute, the times become ungodly, and they truly eat away at your unpaid free time! At least public transit costs pennies compared to maintaining and driving a car!
Wives and mothers deserve some alone-time. It's incumbent on the husband to carve this out so that she doesn't burn out. It's incumbent on fathers to make time, quality time, for their children. But it's even more incumbent on these couples to earn money, do chores, and put in the work for raising their children. That's why we've got schools, because they step in and do the childcare, in loco parentis, and hopefully children have extended families that also participate in those duties.
Commute time is built-in decompression time that can be very valuable.
That assumes you can meaningfully decompress. In a car, it's almost impossible (or at the very least, reckless) if you are the driver, and on most crowded stop-and-go routes even as a passenger. In any kind of public transit you have to deal with anything from rowdy children over beggars, drunks, thieves and other undesirables to keeping up with the latest construction BS and delays. Basically the only thing left is biking or walking, but that only works out on specific routes (i.e. well built sidewalks and separate, wide bike lanes)...
I found public transit commuting to be quite peaceful most days. The rowdy children happened infrequently enough that they were often a nice change of pace, and the "drunks and thieves and undesirables" simply didn't happen with a 9-5 commute. The worst part indeed was the random delays from construction, but on those days, car traffic was also crawling.
Maybe people have a different nervous system than I do but I find that people driving/stuck in traffic can easily enjoy a podcast and that driving takes no significant conscious effort most of the time.
but I find that people driving/stuck in traffic can easily enjoy a podcast
Yeah... and this misconception "it's just stop and go" is a top contributor in accidents because people just don't take care about what is going on in front of them.
Sounds like your wife needs to be more accommodating or understanding. My spouse understands decompression time and enables it, despite me working remotely.
Yes, and somehow commuting week after week is so much better than having a conversation with your wife. It's not like the kids just stop existing when you're commuting. The solution is there, but it can't be used unless you're suffering.
I feel like many of the posts are like hypothetical "if I had a wife and kids this is what I would tell her" - hard to tell if any of these people are actual parents.
Got it - you are having a hypothetical conversation here.
It reminds me of the movie the 49 year old virgin where the title character is asked what breasts feel like and he guesses bags of sand. And of course because it's hypothecal to him he can't tell how ridiculous that actually is.
Comments
I would have agreed with this a few years ago but it's more nuanced than that.
Commute time is built-in decompression time that can be very valuable. For example we have small kids and it's just not going to happen that I am going to tell my wife on a given morning or evening "take care of them while I go on a hike" or whatever.
So on days they I decide to go to the office - I get about 2 hours (one hour each way) of reading time (or podcast time, if I were driving in) which realistically would not materialize any other way.
I think many dads that are my fellow commuters see the commute as a sort of sacred solo space that's hard to maintain otherwise (eg the unspoken etiquette is if you see someone you know on the train you don't sit next to them so they can have their peace and quiet)
I understand your point completely, as I used to feel the same way in the past. Then I realized it's just that being forced to do a commute for work makes it OK to potentially put extra load on your spouse, or to leave your kids with some other caretaker, but this doesn't have to be this way. It should be fine to take some time if you need it even if there's no job-related reason behind it.
So now both my wife and myself take time for ourselves to get that decompression time when needed.
That's why you just lock yourself in the bathroom like the rest of us! /s
haha, when the weather is really bad, the bathroom with the lights off and headphones is great. Growing up with a single bathroom, a multi-bathroom home is just amazing.
I do wonder if having a single bathroom as a child played any part in my reasonably good grasp of concurrency control though!
I am materially not a morning person. I will push until the last second in the morning to get ready. Forcing myself to wake up an hour earlier to drive in, get my coffee and let it percolate did wonders for my morning productivity. WFH lacks that so instead I got a dog which makes me get up at the ass crack but it's still not like a good mental workout of commuting in rush hour on i95 in a 80's sedan
Ooo which 80's sedan? I had an E28 20 years ago that I still think about
saab 900 turbo
Yeah there's nothing like that sweet hour of zen decompressing while fighting my way through rush hour traffic.
Does your wife get 2 hours per day to decompress?
Of course she should (at least a couple days a week).
And culture already seems to acknowledge and expect that. We have the trope of mom taking a long bubble bath, for example.
"Man time" is usually portrayed as something we allow begrudgingly, like when he goes to the pub with the guys, or to watch sports, or to play video games. I rarely see quiet personal time portrayed as something men need or deserve.
Yes especially since she's gone par time at work. Why not?
You said the quiet part out loud: During your commute you force your female partner to do more of the work tending kids and doing household chores.
I agree that many dads enjoy this privileged escape of parenting duties.
I have never seen anyone with an actual spouse/family look at their partner and relationship through this weird adversarial-gender-struggle lens implied in your question.
It's hilarious to think that my wife would begrudge me a commute (I have to go to work) just because I am able to see something positive in it - anymore than I would resent my wife for having gone part time at work and placing more economic "burden" on me.
What you and your perspective are missing is that real families have a shared goal (raise the family) and the difference people flex in to make it happen.
If my wife texts me that the kids are down and she's going to bed early - while I am stuck at the airport because a work flight is 7 hours delayed - I am happy for her, not seeing this as cause for some insane resentment.
Then, you have never talked openly with women about their roles in society.
And, wow. Even the worst chauvinists admit some women feel they are put-upon in their marriages, but you claim these women are invisible.
Time alone is essentially zero sum with kids unless grandparents are covering up way more than most actually do. There is no adversial angle needed.
Come on! Who is forcing whom here? Women traditionally bear many child-rearing duties and it's the "unemployed" spouse, whatever their sex, who stays at home to do household chores, and that's the way it is.
If anyone's forcing anyone, it's the employer and "the system" that conspire to force people into cars and onto the road for far too much of the workday. I didn't have children, but when I lived with family, friends, or significant other, I felt robbed. I felt robbed by my career because the commute was unpaid time, off-the-clock, where I was denied the time to be present, at home, with my loved ones, or doing chores, or hobbies. So, I was robbed; I wasn't forcing my girlfriend to cook or clean or be alone. I didn't have the agency to make that decision: it is made for me and all men like me.
When I drove a car, at least the commute was as fast as possible. When I ride public transit on a commute, the times become ungodly, and they truly eat away at your unpaid free time! At least public transit costs pennies compared to maintaining and driving a car!
Wives and mothers deserve some alone-time. It's incumbent on the husband to carve this out so that she doesn't burn out. It's incumbent on fathers to make time, quality time, for their children. But it's even more incumbent on these couples to earn money, do chores, and put in the work for raising their children. That's why we've got schools, because they step in and do the childcare, in loco parentis, and hopefully children have extended families that also participate in those duties.
That assumes you can meaningfully decompress. In a car, it's almost impossible (or at the very least, reckless) if you are the driver, and on most crowded stop-and-go routes even as a passenger. In any kind of public transit you have to deal with anything from rowdy children over beggars, drunks, thieves and other undesirables to keeping up with the latest construction BS and delays. Basically the only thing left is biking or walking, but that only works out on specific routes (i.e. well built sidewalks and separate, wide bike lanes)...
I found public transit commuting to be quite peaceful most days. The rowdy children happened infrequently enough that they were often a nice change of pace, and the "drunks and thieves and undesirables" simply didn't happen with a 9-5 commute. The worst part indeed was the random delays from construction, but on those days, car traffic was also crawling.
Maybe people have a different nervous system than I do but I find that people driving/stuck in traffic can easily enjoy a podcast and that driving takes no significant conscious effort most of the time.
Yeah... and this misconception "it's just stop and go" is a top contributor in accidents because people just don't take care about what is going on in front of them.
So, the same thing plus excuses and being stuck in a train?
Sounds like your wife needs to be more accommodating or understanding. My spouse understands decompression time and enables it, despite me working remotely.
My wife is awesome and if I said "I need x" I would have it.
But reality is I am never gonna ask for that in the moment. The idea of a "forcing function" being beneficial is not new.
Fanjambo!
It's interesting that the only way your wife will let you have some time to yourself is if you're spending it commuting.
There's small children involved, you have to coordinate that kind of thing.
Yes, and somehow commuting week after week is so much better than having a conversation with your wife. It's not like the kids just stop existing when you're commuting. The solution is there, but it can't be used unless you're suffering.
You misread. It doesn't occur to me to "ask for a break" in the moment with the kids, so the commute is a nice forcing function.
I feel like this is a 100% shared experience for people in actual families vs people looking in from the outside trying to interpret.
No, I think the other posts in the thread show that the experience is not universal.
I feel like many of the posts are like hypothetical "if I had a wife and kids this is what I would tell her" - hard to tell if any of these people are actual parents.
You got kids, exe34?
Oh yes, everything changes when you have kids. You can't negotiate with your wife, you need to trap her into doing what you want.
Got it - you are having a hypothetical conversation here.
It reminds me of the movie the 49 year old virgin where the title character is asked what breasts feel like and he guesses bags of sand. And of course because it's hypothecal to him he can't tell how ridiculous that actually is.
I'll keep an eye out for you in the next thread on the male loneliness epidemic.