No, we can't. Once could lower the rate of increase of housing prices (and, more realistically, land values), but "gentrification" isn't really just about pricing, but a change in preferences: Areas close to urban centers had low prices because people wanted to live in deep suburbs, far away from city crime and bad schools. Now they are desirable, and thus people far more affluent are going to bit outbidding the communities that live there anyway. So the gentrification is inevitable, and IMO any attempts to stop it are bad: Nobody has right to a character of the neighborhood, whether we are talking a Mexican American community or people that want racial covenants in their subdivision. The entire idea is just straight out illiberal in the broadest of senses.
It's true that the gentrification process speeds up when there is no building, as those differences in preferences mean existing tenants are competing with even richer people, and would have to move even further out, but the change in preferences still exists, and thus the gentrification is straight out unavoidable.
Besides, in almost every place where we have serious housing problems, the small changes proposed here are insufficient. When the land is expensive, the normal behavior everywhere is to redevelop plots to the maximum economically viable density. Turning 1 house into 4, which would sell for 500k each, doesn't make sense when the possibility of an apartment building is there. Single stairway apartments turn those 4 cottage homes into 16 3-4 bedroom units. If one is simplifying permitting anyway, why not simplify it for that density, and get far more out of the same land. Those 4 new cottages, now new, would not get redeveloped again for another 30, 40 years, so they would become difficult to afford really quickly. That's why you don't see many places actually attempting this low key densification, as it's way too much work for what you get.
the city of vienna mandates that 2/3rd of any new housing is subsidized. so instead of controlling the price all over, you control the price of a part, and make sure that every neighborhood has room for low income families. in other words you enforce mixing. singapore is another city with a lot of subsidized housing.
And both have become massively unaffordable as a result, and have long lines to wait for housing. Vienna can't grow anymore as a result. The Christmas markets are still nice, but the city is frozen in amber.
Controls on housing prices make it easy to claim "look we made it cheaper" at the cost of forcing people to move away.
that's every large city in germany too. except in vienna it only affects 1/3rd of the population because everyone else lives in affordable subsidized housing. exactly who has been forced to move away?
Vienna can't grow anymore as a result.
huh? vienna has been growing from 1.5 million to 2 million in the last 3 decades. and it hasn't even reached the peak population it had a century ago. it is also building whole new neighborhoods. i don't know how you get the idea that it can't grow anymore. nothing could be further from the truth. there is plenty of space for new development in the east for example.
it's not a lottery. it's based on need. if your income is high enough that you don't qualify then most likely you can afford regular housing. sure here are always edge cases, and some people slip through the gaps, and you also already have to be living in the city for a few years (the rule is now two years, it used to be longer), so it's not available to everyone, but if you are already a resident then it's unlikely that you'll have to leave.
i might understand that if you showed me the actual criticism and evidence that substantiated it.
the system in vienna may not be perfect, but it does better than any other large city in austria and germany and maybe even in europe. criticizing is easy, but i don't think it's fair when the situation everywhere else is worse.
You haven't asked a single question. It's always a waste to engage when people start with "you're wrong". If you engage differently next time I would try!
i am sorry it comes across that way. it's kind of difficult to use a different approach when you make claims that i believe to be without any basis. my believe could be wrong of course, but as i am from vienna i do pay attention to what happens there to an extent, and in particular i compare it to other german cities, so i believe myself to be informed about this matter.
your first claim: vienna has become unaffordable because of its subsidized housing.
that claim in itself makes no sense because subsidies are what makes housing affordable. if your argument is that it caused the prices of the private market to go up, then that is false too because munich and berlin have average rents that are even higher, and other german cities are on par. vienna private rent prices are not out of the ordinary for a city that size. in other words subsidizing housing can't have had any worse effect on the private rental market than whatever those cities in germany do.
your second claim: Vienna can't grow anymore as a result.
vienna is building almost 10k homes every year and has been doing so for the last decade or more. that may not be enough, but that's certainly not for lack of space. there is still plenty of space for the city to grow, especially in the east part of the city where farmland is within the city borders.
i am countering your claims. what do you expect me to ask here? do you have any evidence for your claims?
you say you wished that i understood that there were real criticisms.
well, what are these criticisms? again, compared to other large german cities which are mostly worse i find it hard to believe that there is any valid criticism against vienna's approach. but let's hear it, i am willing to accept that i am wrong because i may have missed something. so what am i missing?
Comments
No, we can't. Once could lower the rate of increase of housing prices (and, more realistically, land values), but "gentrification" isn't really just about pricing, but a change in preferences: Areas close to urban centers had low prices because people wanted to live in deep suburbs, far away from city crime and bad schools. Now they are desirable, and thus people far more affluent are going to bit outbidding the communities that live there anyway. So the gentrification is inevitable, and IMO any attempts to stop it are bad: Nobody has right to a character of the neighborhood, whether we are talking a Mexican American community or people that want racial covenants in their subdivision. The entire idea is just straight out illiberal in the broadest of senses.
It's true that the gentrification process speeds up when there is no building, as those differences in preferences mean existing tenants are competing with even richer people, and would have to move even further out, but the change in preferences still exists, and thus the gentrification is straight out unavoidable.
Besides, in almost every place where we have serious housing problems, the small changes proposed here are insufficient. When the land is expensive, the normal behavior everywhere is to redevelop plots to the maximum economically viable density. Turning 1 house into 4, which would sell for 500k each, doesn't make sense when the possibility of an apartment building is there. Single stairway apartments turn those 4 cottage homes into 16 3-4 bedroom units. If one is simplifying permitting anyway, why not simplify it for that density, and get far more out of the same land. Those 4 new cottages, now new, would not get redeveloped again for another 30, 40 years, so they would become difficult to afford really quickly. That's why you don't see many places actually attempting this low key densification, as it's way too much work for what you get.
Rights != Desires.
Desires are much more relevant in day-to-day politics. Rights are less frequently up for question.
well actually...
the city of vienna mandates that 2/3rd of any new housing is subsidized. so instead of controlling the price all over, you control the price of a part, and make sure that every neighborhood has room for low income families. in other words you enforce mixing. singapore is another city with a lot of subsidized housing.
And both have become massively unaffordable as a result, and have long lines to wait for housing. Vienna can't grow anymore as a result. The Christmas markets are still nice, but the city is frozen in amber.
Controls on housing prices make it easy to claim "look we made it cheaper" at the cost of forcing people to move away.
both have become massively unaffordable
that's every large city in germany too. except in vienna it only affects 1/3rd of the population because everyone else lives in affordable subsidized housing. exactly who has been forced to move away?
Vienna can't grow anymore as a result.
huh? vienna has been growing from 1.5 million to 2 million in the last 3 decades. and it hasn't even reached the peak population it had a century ago. it is also building whole new neighborhoods. i don't know how you get the idea that it can't grow anymore. nothing could be further from the truth. there is plenty of space for new development in the east for example.
Everyone who doesn't win the lottery for affordable housing has to leave.
it's not a lottery. it's based on need. if your income is high enough that you don't qualify then most likely you can afford regular housing. sure here are always edge cases, and some people slip through the gaps, and you also already have to be living in the city for a few years (the rule is now two years, it used to be longer), so it's not available to everyone, but if you are already a resident then it's unlikely that you'll have to leave.
I get that you really dislike what I'm saying. I'm sorry. I wish you understood that there were real criticisms.
i might understand that if you showed me the actual criticism and evidence that substantiated it.
the system in vienna may not be perfect, but it does better than any other large city in austria and germany and maybe even in europe. criticizing is easy, but i don't think it's fair when the situation everywhere else is worse.
You haven't asked a single question. It's always a waste to engage when people start with "you're wrong". If you engage differently next time I would try!
i am sorry it comes across that way. it's kind of difficult to use a different approach when you make claims that i believe to be without any basis. my believe could be wrong of course, but as i am from vienna i do pay attention to what happens there to an extent, and in particular i compare it to other german cities, so i believe myself to be informed about this matter.
your first claim: vienna has become unaffordable because of its subsidized housing.
that claim in itself makes no sense because subsidies are what makes housing affordable. if your argument is that it caused the prices of the private market to go up, then that is false too because munich and berlin have average rents that are even higher, and other german cities are on par. vienna private rent prices are not out of the ordinary for a city that size. in other words subsidizing housing can't have had any worse effect on the private rental market than whatever those cities in germany do.
your second claim: Vienna can't grow anymore as a result.
vienna is building almost 10k homes every year and has been doing so for the last decade or more. that may not be enough, but that's certainly not for lack of space. there is still plenty of space for the city to grow, especially in the east part of the city where farmland is within the city borders.
i am countering your claims. what do you expect me to ask here? do you have any evidence for your claims?
you say you wished that i understood that there were real criticisms.
well, what are these criticisms? again, compared to other large german cities which are mostly worse i find it hard to believe that there is any valid criticism against vienna's approach. but let's hear it, i am willing to accept that i am wrong because i may have missed something. so what am i missing?