He thinks from the cosmic perspective political violence and even ridicule doesn't make sense? And we should be thinking of alien worlds instead? He is extremely detached from reality here. He's welcome to live in his world not impacted by people like Kirk. But I'd rather read articles written by people who are impacted by racist policies and xenophobia and I'll think of those "aliens" much closer to our lives.
Avi wrote a perfect description of privilege.
There is so much more that Charlie could have done if he had lived to his full potential
Yes, he'd make lives of people, very much not like Avi, at least a little bit worse.
For me no. Charlie Kirk was a beacon of hope. He gave people who disagreed with him a microphone, and he showed us all we can disagree but still respect each other and exist together peacefully.
It’s true he said some outrageous things. But if you listen to the full context of whatever he said— not just one outrageous, attention getting sentence, you’ll find that he had solid reasoning for the point. You don’t have to agree with the point, but nobody should say he was hateful.
I am most discouraged seeing all the people saying equally offensive things and being fired for it. Charlie Kirk was a. Very strong advocate of free speech, for obvious reasons. He would have defended those people, but would have explained the reason he thought their ideas were wrong.
Reason is a great tool, but it only functions if a) it operates from solid premises and b) admits that it's at best only an incomplete understanding of the larger material world.
Confusing rationality for truth is like confusing a map for a territory.
Unfortunately I have encountered a lot of people like Kirk (especially during my philosophy education) who felt that simply declaring a consistent map should allow them to enforce whatever laws or social norms that they have derived from that set of propositions. While the rationality that they have created may be consistent and not care about our feelings, it can really lead to some dark places:
absent ethos and pathos, logic serves as an excellent hiding place for vicious and biased assumptions.
I have been paying attention to Kirk and TPUSA for many years because I find that kind of radically idealistic (as opposed to philosophically materialist) kind of propaganda to be fascinating: once you've detached your premises from the material world, you can justify all kinds of fantastic propaganda.
And my experience of Kirk is that he was a vicious propagandist- likely because he was attempting to marginalize the existence of queer folks like myself.
And I mean "existence" in a very literal sense: his position is that queerness is a mental defect and those doesn't "really" exist except under a layer of blue hair.
If you haven't had that propaganda used against you and your people, you probably don't understand why those of us who have find folks like that to be vicious, even if they weren't part of a larger edifice of state power that would enforce violence against people.
So, just as logical premises often are used to hide biases, folks like Kirk may well have struck an aesthetic position favoring debate while at the same time convincing the folks who have the power to do the actual oppressing.
The response from his fans of getting people fired is explicitly the stakes of the arguments he was making: what do you think the stakes of his arguments were, if not to encourage or guide other peoples' actions?
He clearly meant to influence you. He was trying to convince to follow his path to an eternal afterlife. He sincerely had your best interest in mind, he was trying to save you. Of course you may think his line of reasoning is hogwash.
Everyone is free to listen to someone like Kirk, or to ignore them. Or take up the offered microphone and try to disprove his arguments if you wish.
We need more people engaging people with differing opinions. Kirk was a hero of democracy and free speech, regardless of the veracity of his arguments.
Maybe the gay community can raise up similar spokespeople. It would take incredible bravery, but it would probably show a side that currently is seldom seen. I’d guess it would help build bridges.
Yes, he'd make lives of people, very much not like Avi, at least a little bit worse.
Avi Loeb is a Jewish man, holding a Ph.D., and works at Harvard University.
He is exactly the kind of person whose life Charlie Kirk was trying to make difficult. The only way Kirk's work could make his life worse is if Avi Loeb was gay.
And how much worse could Kirk make that life in practice, compared to the usual targets? Avi shows himself how little he cares, so it's not like he's threatened at all. And the typical xenophobia has moved quite a bit away from Jewish people these days. Anti-anti-Semitism is used as a justification/weapon for punishment of different voices recently.
Comments
He thinks from the cosmic perspective political violence and even ridicule doesn't make sense? And we should be thinking of alien worlds instead? He is extremely detached from reality here. He's welcome to live in his world not impacted by people like Kirk. But I'd rather read articles written by people who are impacted by racist policies and xenophobia and I'll think of those "aliens" much closer to our lives.
Avi wrote a perfect description of privilege.
Yes, he'd make lives of people, very much not like Avi, at least a little bit worse.
For you, ok.
For me no. Charlie Kirk was a beacon of hope. He gave people who disagreed with him a microphone, and he showed us all we can disagree but still respect each other and exist together peacefully.
It’s true he said some outrageous things. But if you listen to the full context of whatever he said— not just one outrageous, attention getting sentence, you’ll find that he had solid reasoning for the point. You don’t have to agree with the point, but nobody should say he was hateful.
I am most discouraged seeing all the people saying equally offensive things and being fired for it. Charlie Kirk was a. Very strong advocate of free speech, for obvious reasons. He would have defended those people, but would have explained the reason he thought their ideas were wrong.
Reason is a great tool, but it only functions if a) it operates from solid premises and b) admits that it's at best only an incomplete understanding of the larger material world.
Confusing rationality for truth is like confusing a map for a territory.
Unfortunately I have encountered a lot of people like Kirk (especially during my philosophy education) who felt that simply declaring a consistent map should allow them to enforce whatever laws or social norms that they have derived from that set of propositions. While the rationality that they have created may be consistent and not care about our feelings, it can really lead to some dark places:
absent ethos and pathos, logic serves as an excellent hiding place for vicious and biased assumptions.
I have been paying attention to Kirk and TPUSA for many years because I find that kind of radically idealistic (as opposed to philosophically materialist) kind of propaganda to be fascinating: once you've detached your premises from the material world, you can justify all kinds of fantastic propaganda.
And my experience of Kirk is that he was a vicious propagandist- likely because he was attempting to marginalize the existence of queer folks like myself.
And I mean "existence" in a very literal sense: his position is that queerness is a mental defect and those doesn't "really" exist except under a layer of blue hair.
If you haven't had that propaganda used against you and your people, you probably don't understand why those of us who have find folks like that to be vicious, even if they weren't part of a larger edifice of state power that would enforce violence against people.
So, just as logical premises often are used to hide biases, folks like Kirk may well have struck an aesthetic position favoring debate while at the same time convincing the folks who have the power to do the actual oppressing.
The response from his fans of getting people fired is explicitly the stakes of the arguments he was making: what do you think the stakes of his arguments were, if not to encourage or guide other peoples' actions?
He clearly meant to influence you. He was trying to convince to follow his path to an eternal afterlife. He sincerely had your best interest in mind, he was trying to save you. Of course you may think his line of reasoning is hogwash.
Everyone is free to listen to someone like Kirk, or to ignore them. Or take up the offered microphone and try to disprove his arguments if you wish.
We need more people engaging people with differing opinions. Kirk was a hero of democracy and free speech, regardless of the veracity of his arguments.
Maybe the gay community can raise up similar spokespeople. It would take incredible bravery, but it would probably show a side that currently is seldom seen. I’d guess it would help build bridges.
So who's next on your chopping block for politically motivated murder?
This place is a hell hole.
Avi Loeb is a Jewish man, holding a Ph.D., and works at Harvard University.
He is exactly the kind of person whose life Charlie Kirk was trying to make difficult. The only way Kirk's work could make his life worse is if Avi Loeb was gay.
And how much worse could Kirk make that life in practice, compared to the usual targets? Avi shows himself how little he cares, so it's not like he's threatened at all. And the typical xenophobia has moved quite a bit away from Jewish people these days. Anti-anti-Semitism is used as a justification/weapon for punishment of different voices recently.