> That 1988 paper was a modification of the previous design,as an attempt to address criticisms
That paper is the criticism (of SQL). Is the contention here simply about not understanding that we're talking about what Codd thought, not what others thought/think? It seems abundantly clear what Codd thought. His language doesn't offer a whole lot of ambiguity as far as I am concerned.
> The concept of a relation as a data structure is far more abstract than it seems.
If you want to interpret that way, sure. You can imagine a relation any way you want. But that's not what we're talking about.
> From the platonic view, uniqueness is a trivial, syntax property, you make that choice
Absolutely. Akin to choosing to define your program constraints in tests instead of using a type system. The end result is effectively the same, but one offers certain guarantees out of the box, while the other relies on you to get things right. They, while effectively the same, are not identical. There is good reason why we have static and dynamic typed classifications, just as we have relational and tablational. There is not some kind of magic in there, it is merely a communication device so that others can figure out what you are trying to say.
> but there is a reason no one exactly implemented it
Right, because the relational model, as Codd saw it, isn't really all that good, at least not in real-world scenarios. Just as we've brought up many times before. There is good reason why SQL "won". Why embarrass SQL by calling it relational?
But, if you wish to — and fair enough if you do, I would still love to know what you would call a database that is built in the eye of Codd? It cannot also be relational if SQL is deemed as such. As you point out, there are clear differences. Calling them both relational would be confusing.
Comments
> That 1988 paper was a modification of the previous design,as an attempt to address criticisms
That paper is the criticism (of SQL). Is the contention here simply about not understanding that we're talking about what Codd thought, not what others thought/think? It seems abundantly clear what Codd thought. His language doesn't offer a whole lot of ambiguity as far as I am concerned.
> The concept of a relation as a data structure is far more abstract than it seems.
If you want to interpret that way, sure. You can imagine a relation any way you want. But that's not what we're talking about.
> From the platonic view, uniqueness is a trivial, syntax property, you make that choice
Absolutely. Akin to choosing to define your program constraints in tests instead of using a type system. The end result is effectively the same, but one offers certain guarantees out of the box, while the other relies on you to get things right. They, while effectively the same, are not identical. There is good reason why we have static and dynamic typed classifications, just as we have relational and tablational. There is not some kind of magic in there, it is merely a communication device so that others can figure out what you are trying to say.
> but there is a reason no one exactly implemented it
Right, because the relational model, as Codd saw it, isn't really all that good, at least not in real-world scenarios. Just as we've brought up many times before. There is good reason why SQL "won". Why embarrass SQL by calling it relational?
But, if you wish to — and fair enough if you do, I would still love to know what you would call a database that is built in the eye of Codd? It cannot also be relational if SQL is deemed as such. As you point out, there are clear differences. Calling them both relational would be confusing.