"Yet all of their attempts to break into the US market have resulted in absolute failure (for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here)"
'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high. Even without Psy, Kpop was making legitimate inroads in the age of YT. TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT.
I don't know about you, but Snoop Dogg hasn't exactly been at the forefront of American music in a long time. His 2011 album Doggumentary (uggh...) peaked at #8 on the Billboard 200.
And I don't doubt that K-pop has found a faithful following online. However, the internet has enabled the long tail, by allowing people who would otherwise be geographically disparate to create an online community. Even if 1 million Americans listen to K-pop (more than enough for a huge online following), that's less than 1/3 of 1% of the population - far from successful.
As for concerts, that's an area that has been an indisputable failure. Although there have been some in areas with large Asian-American populations (LA, SF, NYC), it's not like they've made inroads among the non-Asian population. In fact, the "SBS K-Pop Festival in LA" was postponed, allegedly due to poor ticket sales. Considering that people were flying in from all over the country for it, that's a pretty shitty move, even by Korean entertainment agency standards.
On the whole, I would say that the internet is a poor gauge of the general popularity of anything. Let me know when K-pop acts start regularly appearing on TV (no, the Letterman appearance by SNSD a few months ago, which they completely bombed, does not count) and radio - that's when you can legitimately claim that K-pop is popular in America.
Your google insights link points to graphs regarding Hawaii. How exactly is this region relevant to this conversation (or to your point)? If you apply the searches to the US[1], the results are less surprising.
Please describe by which metric do you mean impossibly high. Billboard rankings?
"Please describe by which metric do you mean impossibly high. Billboard rankings?"
What were the Billboard expectations for Kpop in 2011? If your expectations were "about the same as in 2010" then they were drastically exceeded.
Were the expectations that they would "dominate the charts"? Then I will say your expectations were impossibly high.
"Your google insights link points to graphs regarding Hawaii. How exactly is this region relevant to this conversation (or to your point)? "
You can repeat the thing in New York, New Jersey, California, many major metro areas, etc. The point is not that they are more popular then Snoop Dogg or that Snoop Dogg if the biggest artist in the US. The point was that if you go back more then say 18 months you don't really get much of anything for any Kpop artists ever.
By those standards being as popular as someone who is a household name in the US should be viewed as a huge success, not absolute failure.
They're not stars at all. They've gained popularity among Asian Americans - no surprise there, K-pop is a pan-Asian phenomenon, and as recent immigrants, many Asian Americans have strong ties to their home countries' cultures.
But among those who are American through and through? Nothing.
> Pretty sure the answer to this question was in the part you didn't quote.
Pretty sure it wasn't. Snoop Dogg isn't some kind of control you can use for assessing the popularity over time of K-pop artists. If he's decreased in popularity, then it would appear as if they've increased, when in reality the increase was relative. In any case, past trends are not a solid indication of the future. K-pop's popularity in the US will probably plateau once the Asian American audience has been saturated.
The 'failure' we're talking about is contingent on some level of expectations. I didn't expect them to be stars. They are more notable then I would have expected given the history of Jpop and Cpop and Bollywood etc. in America. Obviously you're expectations of success were much higher so you can flatly declare them as failures.
"Snoop Dogg isn't some kind of control you can use for assessing the popularity over time of K-pop artists."
No one has suggested that is the case. Have mercy on the straw men, they've got kids to feed.
"K-pop's popularity in the US will probably plateau once the Asian American audience has been saturated."
I've seen conventional wisdom like this before. It's always supremely confident and sometimes it's right but just as often wrong. Anime was supposed to be a niche forever but DBZ is a part of every American kids upbringing now.
I didn't notice that it was restricted to Hawaii. That definitely invalidates the results, since Hawaii has more Asians than whites, and Asian-Americans are quite keen on K-pop in a way that Americans at large are not.
>'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high.
"impossibly high"?
He's talking about it with the standard "breaking into the US market" term in use since the sixties.
What are you describing ("TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT") is not "breaking into the US market", the same things can happen for any obscure artist here and there.
We're talking mainstream chart success. It doesn't have to be on the Led Zeppelin or Clash level, but those guys haven't even reached Air or Daft Punk levels of US success.
The way obscure artists break into the us market is by signing with a US label.
This is flatly not an option for Kpop artists signed with a Korean label.
The British invasion in the 60's happened because DJ's actually played music requested by listeners, something that just doesn't happen on radio today.
The music ecosystem in America is still heavily tied to the US labels. It's moving away from radio and physical media but those are still 2 of the 4 biggest sources and huge uphill battles for a Korean artist signed to a Korean label. They have no special advantage on itunes, it's probably a bit of an uphill fight but not as bad as CDs in Wal-Mart where the outcome has already been determined. YT is where they shine of course but there's little money in it now.
> The way obscure artists break into the us market is by signing with a US label.
> This is flatly not an option for Kpop artists signed with a Korean label.
This is completely wrong. Korean artists who've made a play for the US market have signed with US labels. For example, the Wonder Girls are managed by JYP Entertainment in South Korea, DefStar Records in Japan, and by Jonas Records in the US.
Wikipedia indicates Jonas Records may be defunct, it certainly wasn't ever Warner Brothers. SNSD is with Interscope, 2NE1 is signed with Will I Am's label.
If you have to sign with a 2nd tier label because you are basically an indentured servant to the Korean label that's been training you for 6 years your odds of being a huge breakthrough success in the US are going to plummet.
My point is that there isn't some kind of contractual obligation that prevents K-pop artists from signing with foreign labels for activities in those countries. If you look at Japan, you can see dozens of K-pop artists who've signed with local labels who have no connections with the Korean labels that those artists are signed with.
If K-pop artists have failed to sign with any major US labels, that's because those labels analyzed the artists and determined that they would not be successful enough to warrant signing them. Interscope is a major label, is it not? So why hasn't SNSD succeeded? See these posts for some clues:
No connections? Virtually all activities everywhere are carefully planned by the Korean labels. These groups can't even crap unless they have their handlers' permission.
What actually happens on the ground is besides the point. Once again, I'm referring to contractual obligations. There is nothing stopping a successful K-pop group from signing with Interscope, as you yourself pointed out. The issue is that American labels are not interested in them, because there's little chance of them succeeding.
And why would JYP Entertainment or SM Entertainment refuse to allow a successful group like SNSD to sign with an American label, if that's what it takes to achieve success? Like you said yourself, success in America isn't possible unless you sign with a major label. So it seems like that's exactly what they'd do (and exactly what happened with SNSD). Yet SNSD hasn't succeeded in America. Care to explain that?
Comments
"Yet all of their attempts to break into the US market have resulted in absolute failure (for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here)"
'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high. Even without Psy, Kpop was making legitimate inroads in the age of YT. TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT.
http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=2NE1%2CSnoop%20Dogg...
I don't know about you, but Snoop Dogg hasn't exactly been at the forefront of American music in a long time. His 2011 album Doggumentary (uggh...) peaked at #8 on the Billboard 200.
And I don't doubt that K-pop has found a faithful following online. However, the internet has enabled the long tail, by allowing people who would otherwise be geographically disparate to create an online community. Even if 1 million Americans listen to K-pop (more than enough for a huge online following), that's less than 1/3 of 1% of the population - far from successful.
As for concerts, that's an area that has been an indisputable failure. Although there have been some in areas with large Asian-American populations (LA, SF, NYC), it's not like they've made inroads among the non-Asian population. In fact, the "SBS K-Pop Festival in LA" was postponed, allegedly due to poor ticket sales. Considering that people were flying in from all over the country for it, that's a pretty shitty move, even by Korean entertainment agency standards.
On the whole, I would say that the internet is a poor gauge of the general popularity of anything. Let me know when K-pop acts start regularly appearing on TV (no, the Letterman appearance by SNSD a few months ago, which they completely bombed, does not count) and radio - that's when you can legitimately claim that K-pop is popular in America.
Your google insights link points to graphs regarding Hawaii. How exactly is this region relevant to this conversation (or to your point)? If you apply the searches to the US[1], the results are less surprising.
Please describe by which metric do you mean impossibly high. Billboard rankings?
[1]:http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=2NE1%2CSnoop%20Dogg...
"Please describe by which metric do you mean impossibly high. Billboard rankings?"
What were the Billboard expectations for Kpop in 2011? If your expectations were "about the same as in 2010" then they were drastically exceeded.
Were the expectations that they would "dominate the charts"? Then I will say your expectations were impossibly high.
"Your google insights link points to graphs regarding Hawaii. How exactly is this region relevant to this conversation (or to your point)? "
You can repeat the thing in New York, New Jersey, California, many major metro areas, etc. The point is not that they are more popular then Snoop Dogg or that Snoop Dogg if the biggest artist in the US. The point was that if you go back more then say 18 months you don't really get much of anything for any Kpop artists ever.
By those standards being as popular as someone who is a household name in the US should be viewed as a huge success, not absolute failure.
> You can repeat the thing in New York, New Jersey, California, many major metro areas, etc.
And you will find that in areas without disproportionately large Asian-American populations, they are basically unheard of.
> The point is not that they are more popular then Snoop Dogg or that Snoop Dogg if the biggest artist in the US.
Then why did you even mention Snoop Dogg? How is his popularity relevant at all?
"And you will find that in areas without disproportionately large Asian-American populations, they are basically unheard of."
Yes I'm not claiming they are huge stars.
"Then why did you even mention Snoop Dogg? How is his popularity relevant at all?"
Pretty sure the answer to this question was in the part you didn't quote.
> Yes I'm not claiming they are huge stars.
They're not stars at all. They've gained popularity among Asian Americans - no surprise there, K-pop is a pan-Asian phenomenon, and as recent immigrants, many Asian Americans have strong ties to their home countries' cultures.
But among those who are American through and through? Nothing.
> Pretty sure the answer to this question was in the part you didn't quote.
Pretty sure it wasn't. Snoop Dogg isn't some kind of control you can use for assessing the popularity over time of K-pop artists. If he's decreased in popularity, then it would appear as if they've increased, when in reality the increase was relative. In any case, past trends are not a solid indication of the future. K-pop's popularity in the US will probably plateau once the Asian American audience has been saturated.
"They're not stars at all. "
The 'failure' we're talking about is contingent on some level of expectations. I didn't expect them to be stars. They are more notable then I would have expected given the history of Jpop and Cpop and Bollywood etc. in America. Obviously you're expectations of success were much higher so you can flatly declare them as failures.
"Snoop Dogg isn't some kind of control you can use for assessing the popularity over time of K-pop artists."
No one has suggested that is the case. Have mercy on the straw men, they've got kids to feed.
"K-pop's popularity in the US will probably plateau once the Asian American audience has been saturated."
I've seen conventional wisdom like this before. It's always supremely confident and sometimes it's right but just as often wrong. Anime was supposed to be a niche forever but DBZ is a part of every American kids upbringing now.
I didn't notice that it was restricted to Hawaii. That definitely invalidates the results, since Hawaii has more Asians than whites, and Asian-Americans are quite keen on K-pop in a way that Americans at large are not.
>'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high.
"impossibly high"?
He's talking about it with the standard "breaking into the US market" term in use since the sixties.
What are you describing ("TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT") is not "breaking into the US market", the same things can happen for any obscure artist here and there.
We're talking mainstream chart success. It doesn't have to be on the Led Zeppelin or Clash level, but those guys haven't even reached Air or Daft Punk levels of US success.
The way obscure artists break into the us market is by signing with a US label.
This is flatly not an option for Kpop artists signed with a Korean label.
The British invasion in the 60's happened because DJ's actually played music requested by listeners, something that just doesn't happen on radio today.
The music ecosystem in America is still heavily tied to the US labels. It's moving away from radio and physical media but those are still 2 of the 4 biggest sources and huge uphill battles for a Korean artist signed to a Korean label. They have no special advantage on itunes, it's probably a bit of an uphill fight but not as bad as CDs in Wal-Mart where the outcome has already been determined. YT is where they shine of course but there's little money in it now.
> The way obscure artists break into the us market is by signing with a US label.
> This is flatly not an option for Kpop artists signed with a Korean label.
This is completely wrong. Korean artists who've made a play for the US market have signed with US labels. For example, the Wonder Girls are managed by JYP Entertainment in South Korea, DefStar Records in Japan, and by Jonas Records in the US.
Wikipedia indicates Jonas Records may be defunct, it certainly wasn't ever Warner Brothers. SNSD is with Interscope, 2NE1 is signed with Will I Am's label.
If you have to sign with a 2nd tier label because you are basically an indentured servant to the Korean label that's been training you for 6 years your odds of being a huge breakthrough success in the US are going to plummet.
My point is that there isn't some kind of contractual obligation that prevents K-pop artists from signing with foreign labels for activities in those countries. If you look at Japan, you can see dozens of K-pop artists who've signed with local labels who have no connections with the Korean labels that those artists are signed with.
If K-pop artists have failed to sign with any major US labels, that's because those labels analyzed the artists and determined that they would not be successful enough to warrant signing them. Interscope is a major label, is it not? So why hasn't SNSD succeeded? See these posts for some clues:
http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2...
http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2...
And see this post on why Psy succeeded:
http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2...
No connections? Virtually all activities everywhere are carefully planned by the Korean labels. These groups can't even crap unless they have their handlers' permission.
What actually happens on the ground is besides the point. Once again, I'm referring to contractual obligations. There is nothing stopping a successful K-pop group from signing with Interscope, as you yourself pointed out. The issue is that American labels are not interested in them, because there's little chance of them succeeding.
And why would JYP Entertainment or SM Entertainment refuse to allow a successful group like SNSD to sign with an American label, if that's what it takes to achieve success? Like you said yourself, success in America isn't possible unless you sign with a major label. So it seems like that's exactly what they'd do (and exactly what happened with SNSD). Yet SNSD hasn't succeeded in America. Care to explain that?
>Virtually all activities everywhere are carefully planned by the Korean labels.
Which is beside the point.
Why wouldn't those Korean labels want to negotiate deals with US labels for their artists?