Not everything is about money. You have way more security in Western Europe comparing to the US. Also, people don't want to move too far from their families.
Edit: Also I want to add that it is way easier to get a permanent residence and citizenship, for example in Germany than the US. The only problem is just learning German but for that most of the companies support you by paying your language course and so on.
Not everything is about money. You have way more security in Western Europe comparing to the US
It is as a skilled immigrant like my parents.
A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country, so there's no reason to uproot your life unless there is a DRASTIC difference in QoL, because immigrating is expensive. You're looking at $30-50k spent to immigrate.
Germany doesn't provide that drastic enough an economic change compared to the US and Canada, and that's why it's so easy to immigrate to Germany - it isn't as oversubscribed, and those same white collar roles you mentioned end up giving the same if not better benefits in North America via your employer.
For Eastern European or MENA immigrants, Germany makes sense because there is an existing community and it's close to home - not as much for Asians or Central/South Americans.
Furthermore, the xenophobia is real in Germany and across Europe. It's hard to explain to a Gora or Ang Mo, but like you'll never truly become "German" or "French" for a large segment of the population no matter how much you try to assimilate.
it is way easier to get a permanent residence and citizenship, for example in Germany than the US
Because for a large segment of immigrants (especially from Asia and Central/South America and especially among skilled professionals), Germany and much of Europe simply isn't as attractive a proposition. You end up spending a similar amount immigrating but salaries are much lower and communities aren't as established so it harder to recoup costs
A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country
It is not in Turkey but again, it is not about money. People want to move to Western Europe for multiple reasons. I met with a brain surgeon from South Korea who moved to Germany, because he just wanted to live in the centre of the Europe so he can travel around easily.
I'm also telling people to move to the US if they only care money but that's not their priority.
You're looking at $30-50k spent to immigrate.
I've never heard such a number. You spend around €2-3K and most of the cases, you get a relocation budget from your employer.
Hence why I called out Eastern Europe and MENA, though Turks who can afford it do try to target the US instead.
For example, all of Erdogan's kids attended IU Bloomington for undergrad and grad school instead of German programs like LMU or TUM, and the Koç family (the family that controls the Turkish economy) sent most of their kids to Stanford, JHU, and Brown.
I met with a brain surgeon from South Korea who moved to Germany, because he just wanted to live in the centre of the Europe so he can travel around easily
Ofc, yet the largest Korean diaspora in the West is in America, and the 2nd largest in Canada.
you get a relocation budget from your employer.
In tech we're lucky we have a market that pays so highly for our skills, but other industries don't pay as much or require a significant amount of retraining, and if you're bringing a family, as plenty of immigrants do, you don't want to live in crummy neighborhood, so you need a lot of money to have a safety net.
This was your initial argument and I'm trying to tell you that there are many reasons by pointing out to some examples. Why is it so hard to understand?
Yes, and I stand by it because this is an extremely common conversation in every single diaspora and I have family and friends who have made this very same decision.
There will ofc be people immigrating to Western Europe, and ofc a decent number are skilled, yet at the end of the day, in absolute numbers immigrants trend towards North America over Western Europe, inspite of the difficulty [0].
Immigration, like every product or service follows the law of supply and demand. It is miles easier to immigrate to much of Western Europe simply because the demand, while significant, is not as close to that for North America
If Western European countries wish to attract skilled immigration, they need to understand what truly makes the North American system click.
Australia followed a similar policy after ending the White Australia program in the 1970s and transformed into a truly multicultural country, and that was due to following a program similar to that in North America.
2. I have literally provided a peer reviewed paper proving my point, and I can provide a second one as well [0].
It's a well documented trend, and I myself can confirm this within my family, and multiple others in a similar boat.
I'm not saying Western Europe is bad, but the kind of pipeline that exists in much of North America isn't as robust in Western Europe.
Plus the absolute number in the trade paper you provided is ~10k arrivals and ~6k departures from Europe, which is a drop in the bucket in absolute terms compared to North America. Just with EB-2s alone (one of the multiple types of visas for STEM talent) you are seeing 90k approvals a year.
I really like to read my provided source instead complaining about the tone. Your first provided source is outdated (ca. 2016), your personal view has a bias and selection effect ("US is the best country in the world", you are surrounded by people preferring US and money), I couldnt find the data, you argue for, in the second source (you can give a page number), and my thesis was: It is not only about money. If so, Europe would have an outflow to US. It does not despite lower income. So other factors in migration matter. What is your problem about this statement?
The State of Europe report only further validates my core thesis:
A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country, so there's no reason to uproot your life unless there is a DRASTIC difference in QoL
The rate of inflows and outflows of European and American tech workers being constant proves this very point.
Pre-tax TC is only 2-3x more in the US than much of Europe, and QoL doesn't change drastically, so there's no reason for Europeans techies to immigrate to the US or vice versa based on salary alone.
This is a similar story for techies in other markets like China, SK, Taiwan, and India preferring to stay put instead of immigrating to much of Western Europe, because it's a 1-3x TC bump compared to a 3-6x TC bump going to North America.
As tech salaries in those countries rise, then increasingly techies won't leave those countries either unless a drastic TC change is provided.
And it's not just salary, the xenophobia and microaggressions in much of Europe are definitely in your face if you don't look "European" (and even then some idiots will target other Europeans as lesser) compared to much of North America.
And no, pointing out Varadkar, Sunak, and Costa are of South Asian origin; Yeşilgöz and Özdemir being of Turkish origin; etc doesn't fly.
" The rate of inflows and outflows of European and American tech workers being constant proves this very point. " Well the report stated otherwise but I guess you do selective reading, right? ;)
" And it's not just salary, the xenophobia and microaggressions in much of Europe are definitely in your face if you don't look "European" (and even then some idiots will target other Europeans as lesser) compared to much of North America. " Just a casual reminder that 50 % + Americans voted for Trump while many European countries have a way smaller right populist movements. India and China also have very racist governments.
And again Europe has an influx of tech workers so I guess, your pointed out factors are not the only ones that matters.
" eşilgöz and Özdemir being of Turkish origin " I'll ask my Turkish friends I meet casually in Berlin.
From my site I learned again. Americans think they are the best country in the world while seing not the problems of their new home.
Comments
They probably meant that their country takes in too many unskilled immigrants, not highly skilled immigrants like doctors, engineers and so on.
If you have the skills for above as an immigrant, you can command way better salaries in the US and Canada, or stay in your home country.
There's no reason to immigrate to Western Europe except as a consolation prize.
Not everything is about money. You have way more security in Western Europe comparing to the US. Also, people don't want to move too far from their families.
Edit: Also I want to add that it is way easier to get a permanent residence and citizenship, for example in Germany than the US. The only problem is just learning German but for that most of the companies support you by paying your language course and so on.
It is as a skilled immigrant like my parents.
A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country, so there's no reason to uproot your life unless there is a DRASTIC difference in QoL, because immigrating is expensive. You're looking at $30-50k spent to immigrate.
Germany doesn't provide that drastic enough an economic change compared to the US and Canada, and that's why it's so easy to immigrate to Germany - it isn't as oversubscribed, and those same white collar roles you mentioned end up giving the same if not better benefits in North America via your employer.
For Eastern European or MENA immigrants, Germany makes sense because there is an existing community and it's close to home - not as much for Asians or Central/South Americans.
Furthermore, the xenophobia is real in Germany and across Europe. It's hard to explain to a Gora or Ang Mo, but like you'll never truly become "German" or "French" for a large segment of the population no matter how much you try to assimilate.
Because for a large segment of immigrants (especially from Asia and Central/South America and especially among skilled professionals), Germany and much of Europe simply isn't as attractive a proposition. You end up spending a similar amount immigrating but salaries are much lower and communities aren't as established so it harder to recoup costs
It is not in Turkey but again, it is not about money. People want to move to Western Europe for multiple reasons. I met with a brain surgeon from South Korea who moved to Germany, because he just wanted to live in the centre of the Europe so he can travel around easily.
I'm also telling people to move to the US if they only care money but that's not their priority.
I've never heard such a number. You spend around €2-3K and most of the cases, you get a relocation budget from your employer.
Hence why I called out Eastern Europe and MENA, though Turks who can afford it do try to target the US instead.
For example, all of Erdogan's kids attended IU Bloomington for undergrad and grad school instead of German programs like LMU or TUM, and the Koç family (the family that controls the Turkish economy) sent most of their kids to Stanford, JHU, and Brown.
Ofc, yet the largest Korean diaspora in the West is in America, and the 2nd largest in Canada.
In tech we're lucky we have a market that pays so highly for our skills, but other industries don't pay as much or require a significant amount of retraining, and if you're bringing a family, as plenty of immigrants do, you don't want to live in crummy neighborhood, so you need a lot of money to have a safety net.
This was your initial argument and I'm trying to tell you that there are many reasons by pointing out to some examples. Why is it so hard to understand?
Yes, and I stand by it because this is an extremely common conversation in every single diaspora and I have family and friends who have made this very same decision.
There will ofc be people immigrating to Western Europe, and ofc a decent number are skilled, yet at the end of the day, in absolute numbers immigrants trend towards North America over Western Europe, inspite of the difficulty [0].
Immigration, like every product or service follows the law of supply and demand. It is miles easier to immigrate to much of Western Europe simply because the demand, while significant, is not as close to that for North America
If Western European countries wish to attract skilled immigration, they need to understand what truly makes the North American system click.
Australia followed a similar policy after ending the White Australia program in the 1970s and transformed into a truly multicultural country, and that was due to following a program similar to that in North America.
[0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_...
More people move from US to Europe https://stateofeuropeantech.com/talent
And this proofs the point that income isnt the only metric for emigration.
And most skilled (for the sake of this convo STEM) immigrants immigrate to North America and have done so for decades [0]
[0] - https://documents1.worldbank.org/curated/en/7938614756940962...
The state of European Tech is about STEM. Do you think they talk about American uneducated refuguess stranding on the European shore?
1. I don't appreciate that tone.
2. I have literally provided a peer reviewed paper proving my point, and I can provide a second one as well [0].
It's a well documented trend, and I myself can confirm this within my family, and multiple others in a similar boat.
I'm not saying Western Europe is bad, but the kind of pipeline that exists in much of North America isn't as robust in Western Europe.
Plus the absolute number in the trade paper you provided is ~10k arrivals and ~6k departures from Europe, which is a drop in the bucket in absolute terms compared to North America. Just with EB-2s alone (one of the multiple types of visas for STEM talent) you are seeing 90k approvals a year.
[0] - https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/22-047_b5373e6a-...
I really like to read my provided source instead complaining about the tone. Your first provided source is outdated (ca. 2016), your personal view has a bias and selection effect ("US is the best country in the world", you are surrounded by people preferring US and money), I couldnt find the data, you argue for, in the second source (you can give a page number), and my thesis was: It is not only about money. If so, Europe would have an outflow to US. It does not despite lower income. So other factors in migration matter. What is your problem about this statement?
The State of Europe report only further validates my core thesis:
The rate of inflows and outflows of European and American tech workers being constant proves this very point.
Pre-tax TC is only 2-3x more in the US than much of Europe, and QoL doesn't change drastically, so there's no reason for Europeans techies to immigrate to the US or vice versa based on salary alone.
This is a similar story for techies in other markets like China, SK, Taiwan, and India preferring to stay put instead of immigrating to much of Western Europe, because it's a 1-3x TC bump compared to a 3-6x TC bump going to North America.
As tech salaries in those countries rise, then increasingly techies won't leave those countries either unless a drastic TC change is provided.
And it's not just salary, the xenophobia and microaggressions in much of Europe are definitely in your face if you don't look "European" (and even then some idiots will target other Europeans as lesser) compared to much of North America.
And no, pointing out Varadkar, Sunak, and Costa are of South Asian origin; Yeşilgöz and Özdemir being of Turkish origin; etc doesn't fly.
" The rate of inflows and outflows of European and American tech workers being constant proves this very point. " Well the report stated otherwise but I guess you do selective reading, right? ;)
" And it's not just salary, the xenophobia and microaggressions in much of Europe are definitely in your face if you don't look "European" (and even then some idiots will target other Europeans as lesser) compared to much of North America. " Just a casual reminder that 50 % + Americans voted for Trump while many European countries have a way smaller right populist movements. India and China also have very racist governments. And again Europe has an influx of tech workers so I guess, your pointed out factors are not the only ones that matters.
" eşilgöz and Özdemir being of Turkish origin " I'll ask my Turkish friends I meet casually in Berlin.
From my site I learned again. Americans think they are the best country in the world while seing not the problems of their new home.