The military is a tool. Like any tool, it can be used for bad things, and it can be used for good things. Without having a military, we would be up shit's creek.
I think you should be more thankful of and respectful towards the people "in the trenches," and also the technologists, who make it possible for you to live in a safe place and spend your time according to your desires.
Consider for a moment who that military decided needed killing en mass during the decade following the topic of discussion. Where all those communal farmers really threatening our way of life? When this army got it's ass kicked and left with it's tail between its legs a few years later, leaving those farmers to live their own lives as they chose to, did our society come crashing down?
Why didn't it?
There are no Mongol hoards waiting to invade, suggestions to the contrary come from those who profit from the fiction and those who buy into it.
No, politicians decided that. That's an important distinction. If we don't like what the military is doing, we need to place blame where it belongs: on the politicians.
There are no Mongol hoards waiting to invade
The military is still highly important. Think about the role it played in the Revolutionary War, Civil War, and WWII, to name a few wars that most consider to have been justified for the US to enter. More recently, the Gulf War where Hussein invaded Kuwait. I personally believe that in the future, Iran and/or North Korea will acquire a nuclear weapon that threatens US citizens. Somali pirates. Who knows what else will come up. We still need a military.
So if the military does something and it is bad, then it isn't their fault because politicians made them do it. But if the military does it and it is good, then they deserve our praise and thanks....
Do you recognize the problem here?
Regardless, this whole thought that we should be "thankful" to the American military is absurd. They have billions of dollars to spend every year, why do they also require thanks? Do tanks run on thanks?
No. Thanks is needed because without the blinding effect of popular societal support, their actions do not stand for themselves. The military requires praise to be shovelled onto it like coal into a furnace 24/7 so that its hired guns can continue to lie to themselves and sleep at night. Listen, if you think they should have thanks, then do it yourself; however it is not your place to scold others who want nothing to do with it.
(1) The military deserves praise or blame regarding how well they do, militarily speaking, and the politicians praise or blame regarding political decisions. You're conflating the two.
(2) And, yes, you should be thankful that someone is willing to defend your freedoms.
(3) I don't scold people who don't thank the military; I scold people who denigrate the military. Actually, it's not scolding, it's showing a more rational way to think about it.
[1] I only recognize that a distinction could exist when we restrict the discussion to conscripted armies.
[2] I assert they do nothing of the sort.
[3] Call it what you like, telling people that they should be more respectful of the military when they express concern about being, by proxy, responsible for a loss of life, is... I don't even know how to describe it. Lets say "insensitive of the humanity of others".
Perhaps the most unforgivable thing you've done here is forced me to weigh in on the side of javert. >:(
If you cannot separate political policies from military ones, you cannot pretend to argue usefully about this.
"I only recognize that a distinction could exist when we restrict the discussion to conscripted armies."
You need to further elaborate on this, because one easy interpretation is that you have no idea how to reason about volunteer armies. I'm not going to even go into more esoteric arguments about how "volunteer" anything actually is--just consider that the military does not (except in some bizzaro world some people seem to want to live in) spontaneously go to war. The politicians guide policies, the politicians set agendas, and declare wars and deploy troops (for our sake here, I consider the President in the politician camp).
(I'll also argue that things like what the CIA/Homeland Sec. do that require drones and such are wrong, so save it.)
It is wrong to inflict injury on another human being (we could argue this, but let's not). That said, surgeons cut to good effect, police detain suicide attempts, and bouncers eject unruly patrons. We can argue that harm is being done in all those cases, but to good effect.
More to the point, though, javert is saying that the military deserves praise in terms of how effective/professional they are, and you did not disagree beyond saying that the divide between politics and force was beyond you.
You cannot with a straight face tell me that you refuse to agree that the (American) military is due praise for their ability due to their given directions--while at the same time participating in this community here on HN.
Tell me, what is the cost of pushing consumerism and advertising on people? What is the cost of buying the latest and greatest smartphone? What is the cost of the shinier, faster computer? What is the cost of developing games and amusements to distract and destroy manhours of productivity?
What is the cost of datamining to circumvent privacy and better target ads? Of streamlining sharing of information about friends who wouldn't do so themselves?
So, please, by all means, criticize those dumb sociopaths in the military--but hold yourself to the same goddamn standard when talking about the majority of your fellow hackers!
The ethical ramifications of work that is military in nature that an engineer must consider are close enough to on topic for my taste. These are concerns I know are considered not only by myself but by several of my peers working on the east coast, where jobs with military contractors are a looming presence in the minds of any STEM major looking for work.
"When this army got it's ass kicked and left with it's tail between its legs a few years later, leaving those farmers to live their own lives as they chose to, did our society come crashing down?"
You are seriously undereducated on this. Were you born this stupid, or did you put effort into it?
At the very least, go read about how the war was actually executed, and to what degree politicians influenced military decisions (where to bomb, etc.). Read about the push to let natives do more of the fighting, and read about how shitty the South Vietnamese government was. There were a lot of factors involved, and few of them were failures of the military.
Not everyone has the same militaristic view of the world, nor the view that we should impose our views on others by telling them what they should be thankful for.
You're playing fast and loose with language, and that's a big no-no for thinking rationally.
militaristic view of the world
That I think the military is a tool we need, does not make my worldview "militaristic." (Truly, I think the military is needed to ensure peace, but that's beside the point.)
should impose our views
I'm not imposing my views, I'm sharing my views. It's rational discussion. If you act as if sharing views equals imposing them, than you're giving a free bone to the dogs that want to destroy free speech (and believe me, they're more common than people think).
>The military is a tool. Like any tool, it can be used for bad things, and it can be used for good things.
Not all tools are neutral. Tools also have intended uses and inherent affordances towards certain uses.
Yes, you can use a knife to kill and also to cut a piece of a cake. An RPG? Much less neutral.
>Without having a military, we would be up shit's creek.
Yes, but if you did not have a military, lots of countries around the world would also be better off. You know, from certain imperialist, self-serving, resource grubbing, our-idea-of-society-spreading kind of actions...
Comments
The military is a tool. Like any tool, it can be used for bad things, and it can be used for good things. Without having a military, we would be up shit's creek.
I think you should be more thankful of and respectful towards the people "in the trenches," and also the technologists, who make it possible for you to live in a safe place and spend your time according to your desires.
Consider for a moment who that military decided needed killing en mass during the decade following the topic of discussion. Where all those communal farmers really threatening our way of life? When this army got it's ass kicked and left with it's tail between its legs a few years later, leaving those farmers to live their own lives as they chose to, did our society come crashing down?
Why didn't it?
There are no Mongol hoards waiting to invade, suggestions to the contrary come from those who profit from the fiction and those who buy into it.
that military decided needed killing
No, politicians decided that. That's an important distinction. If we don't like what the military is doing, we need to place blame where it belongs: on the politicians.
There are no Mongol hoards waiting to invade
The military is still highly important. Think about the role it played in the Revolutionary War, Civil War, and WWII, to name a few wars that most consider to have been justified for the US to enter. More recently, the Gulf War where Hussein invaded Kuwait. I personally believe that in the future, Iran and/or North Korea will acquire a nuclear weapon that threatens US citizens. Somali pirates. Who knows what else will come up. We still need a military.
So if the military does something and it is bad, then it isn't their fault because politicians made them do it. But if the military does it and it is good, then they deserve our praise and thanks....
Do you recognize the problem here?
Regardless, this whole thought that we should be "thankful" to the American military is absurd. They have billions of dollars to spend every year, why do they also require thanks? Do tanks run on thanks?
No. Thanks is needed because without the blinding effect of popular societal support, their actions do not stand for themselves. The military requires praise to be shovelled onto it like coal into a furnace 24/7 so that its hired guns can continue to lie to themselves and sleep at night. Listen, if you think they should have thanks, then do it yourself; however it is not your place to scold others who want nothing to do with it.
(1) The military deserves praise or blame regarding how well they do, militarily speaking, and the politicians praise or blame regarding political decisions. You're conflating the two.
(2) And, yes, you should be thankful that someone is willing to defend your freedoms.
(3) I don't scold people who don't thank the military; I scold people who denigrate the military. Actually, it's not scolding, it's showing a more rational way to think about it.
(4) I've enjoyed this, but I'm done here.
[1] I only recognize that a distinction could exist when we restrict the discussion to conscripted armies.
[2] I assert they do nothing of the sort.
[3] Call it what you like, telling people that they should be more respectful of the military when they express concern about being, by proxy, responsible for a loss of life, is... I don't even know how to describe it. Lets say "insensitive of the humanity of others".
[4] Cheerio
Perhaps the most unforgivable thing you've done here is forced me to weigh in on the side of javert. >:(
If you cannot separate political policies from military ones, you cannot pretend to argue usefully about this.
"I only recognize that a distinction could exist when we restrict the discussion to conscripted armies."
You need to further elaborate on this, because one easy interpretation is that you have no idea how to reason about volunteer armies. I'm not going to even go into more esoteric arguments about how "volunteer" anything actually is--just consider that the military does not (except in some bizzaro world some people seem to want to live in) spontaneously go to war. The politicians guide policies, the politicians set agendas, and declare wars and deploy troops (for our sake here, I consider the President in the politician camp).
(I'll also argue that things like what the CIA/Homeland Sec. do that require drones and such are wrong, so save it.)
It is wrong to inflict injury on another human being (we could argue this, but let's not). That said, surgeons cut to good effect, police detain suicide attempts, and bouncers eject unruly patrons. We can argue that harm is being done in all those cases, but to good effect.
More to the point, though, javert is saying that the military deserves praise in terms of how effective/professional they are, and you did not disagree beyond saying that the divide between politics and force was beyond you.
You cannot with a straight face tell me that you refuse to agree that the (American) military is due praise for their ability due to their given directions--while at the same time participating in this community here on HN.
Tell me, what is the cost of pushing consumerism and advertising on people? What is the cost of buying the latest and greatest smartphone? What is the cost of the shinier, faster computer? What is the cost of developing games and amusements to distract and destroy manhours of productivity?
What is the cost of datamining to circumvent privacy and better target ads? Of streamlining sharing of information about friends who wouldn't do so themselves?
So, please, by all means, criticize those dumb sociopaths in the military--but hold yourself to the same goddamn standard when talking about the majority of your fellow hackers!
[deleted]
The ethical ramifications of work that is military in nature that an engineer must consider are close enough to on topic for my taste. These are concerns I know are considered not only by myself but by several of my peers working on the east coast, where jobs with military contractors are a looming presence in the minds of any STEM major looking for work.
"When this army got it's ass kicked and left with it's tail between its legs a few years later, leaving those farmers to live their own lives as they chose to, did our society come crashing down?"
You are seriously undereducated on this. Were you born this stupid, or did you put effort into it?
At the very least, go read about how the war was actually executed, and to what degree politicians influenced military decisions (where to bomb, etc.). Read about the push to let natives do more of the fighting, and read about how shitty the South Vietnamese government was. There were a lot of factors involved, and few of them were failures of the military.
Do you naturally miss the point, or do you have to put effort into it?
Please restate your point with less inflammatory language and more facts.
No, I like it as it is. Why would I neuter my language for your sake?
Not everyone has the same militaristic view of the world, nor the view that we should impose our views on others by telling them what they should be thankful for.
You're playing fast and loose with language, and that's a big no-no for thinking rationally.
militaristic view of the world
That I think the military is a tool we need, does not make my worldview "militaristic." (Truly, I think the military is needed to ensure peace, but that's beside the point.)
should impose our views
I'm not imposing my views, I'm sharing my views. It's rational discussion. If you act as if sharing views equals imposing them, than you're giving a free bone to the dogs that want to destroy free speech (and believe me, they're more common than people think).
I was referring specifically to the "you should" language.
Fair enough, but notice that I'm backing that up with reasoned arguments. It's not intended as a commandment.
>The military is a tool. Like any tool, it can be used for bad things, and it can be used for good things.
Not all tools are neutral. Tools also have intended uses and inherent affordances towards certain uses.
Yes, you can use a knife to kill and also to cut a piece of a cake. An RPG? Much less neutral.
>Without having a military, we would be up shit's creek.
Yes, but if you did not have a military, lots of countries around the world would also be better off. You know, from certain imperialist, self-serving, resource grubbing, our-idea-of-society-spreading kind of actions...