I don't want to debate fine points of ethics (I know, too late), but I thought I'd share a little more background, and then shut up. OK?
Believe me, I'm not holier than thou - you should hear me in traffic. But I really think that this is a black and white issue. I don't see any difference between illegal downloading and walking out of Walgreen's with a CD in your pocket. Or putting that extra chicken leg from the buffet into your purse. "They'd just have to throw it away, anyway." I don't care. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
I don't ever want anyone to get the impression I'd employ situational ethics in business (or anywhere else, either). And I do not want to knowingly conduct business with anyone that does. It's simply not worth it, period.
I once had a partner that drew the ethical line where it was most convenient for him. First, he copied software from one account to another. Then, he went through a client's employee's drawers looking for something to "save us a lot of time". Before I realized it, he was making back door deals with clients and vendors because he "didn't think I'd mind; it was money I'd wouldn't have ever seen anyway."
I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone progresses down that path, or that reusing tidbits of code is the same as murder. It's just that when it's time to draw an ethical line in the sand, my position is clear and firm.
Just a few antecdotes to give you an idea of how strongly some business people feel about this issue:
- An acquintance of mine was earning $150 per hour advising a Fortune 1000 company which multi-million dollar enterprise package to buy. As an aside, he brought in a buddy to sell printers to his client and split the profit. He was immediately fired and black-balled. The CEO's reasoning was, "I would have never known if we made the right decision."
- A vendor was presenting their software package to my client. They said, "We already know your industry. In fact, we sold a system to XYZ Company." My client immediately dismissed the vendor. He later said, "That's all I need. For one of his programmers to accidently say what I'm doing to an XYZ employee over coffee."
- My client went bankrupt. Their assets (including all IP) were acquired by a third party in the settlement. Imagine their surprise when they had to compete with my client's ex-employee who set himself up in a software maintenance business at 1/2 industry rates. How did he know who to call on and what software they had? The case is still in litigation, but that guy's name will forever be dirt in this town.
- A contractor at one of my clients accidently left a thumb drive on a desk he was using. It had 70,000 social security numbers on it. What were they to think?
I could go on and on. They are some real slime balls out there. There are also plenty of good people who make stupid decisions to save a little time because "it doesn't make much difference anyway". How are people supposed to know the difference?
And when it comes to technology, many business people are doubly in the dark. Sometimes, TRUST is all they've got. It's so ridiculously easy for many of us to earn a nice living (try digging ditches instead), why would you ever jeapordize that over something so trivial?
I hope it doesn't feel like a debate, I am just trying to see your side of this because if I felt that what I was doing was unethical or even in a "grey area", I would not be doing it. The reason I keep coming back to this thread is not because I want to win an argument, but because I might be wrong.
I agree with you that drawing the ethical line wherever it is most convenient is bad. In fact, I have discussed or debated ethics online a few times in the past, and I was always in your position, saying that the issue is black and white no matter how convenient it would be otherwise. Perhaps this is why I am so interested in this thread, now that I am on the other end of it.
Anyway, thanks for your insight. Although I am still not convinced that anything I did was unethical, I will think twice before looking at past work again.
It hasn't felt like a debate. Just a real interesting topic. And, who knows, maybe we got one of those chicken leg buffet people to thinking here - this discussion may save someone a whole bunch of trouble years down the line.
Every once in a while, it's nice to say that which goes without saying.
the restaurant throwing away perfectly good food into the trash when there are hungry people in poorer countries (or even a few blocks away in the same city) who haven't eaten chicken in months because they cant afford it? (I know people like that).
OR
the "chicken leg buffet" person. He paid full price for his buffet, only his stomach can contain 2 legs, and he does not wish to greedily stuff himself with 6 legs.
or what if he took 4 legs on his plate, and out of a good conscience, cannot throw 2 uneaten legs away?
Comments
I don't want to debate fine points of ethics (I know, too late), but I thought I'd share a little more background, and then shut up. OK?
Believe me, I'm not holier than thou - you should hear me in traffic. But I really think that this is a black and white issue. I don't see any difference between illegal downloading and walking out of Walgreen's with a CD in your pocket. Or putting that extra chicken leg from the buffet into your purse. "They'd just have to throw it away, anyway." I don't care. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
I don't ever want anyone to get the impression I'd employ situational ethics in business (or anywhere else, either). And I do not want to knowingly conduct business with anyone that does. It's simply not worth it, period.
I once had a partner that drew the ethical line where it was most convenient for him. First, he copied software from one account to another. Then, he went through a client's employee's drawers looking for something to "save us a lot of time". Before I realized it, he was making back door deals with clients and vendors because he "didn't think I'd mind; it was money I'd wouldn't have ever seen anyway."
I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone progresses down that path, or that reusing tidbits of code is the same as murder. It's just that when it's time to draw an ethical line in the sand, my position is clear and firm.
Just a few antecdotes to give you an idea of how strongly some business people feel about this issue:
- An acquintance of mine was earning $150 per hour advising a Fortune 1000 company which multi-million dollar enterprise package to buy. As an aside, he brought in a buddy to sell printers to his client and split the profit. He was immediately fired and black-balled. The CEO's reasoning was, "I would have never known if we made the right decision."
- A vendor was presenting their software package to my client. They said, "We already know your industry. In fact, we sold a system to XYZ Company." My client immediately dismissed the vendor. He later said, "That's all I need. For one of his programmers to accidently say what I'm doing to an XYZ employee over coffee."
- My client went bankrupt. Their assets (including all IP) were acquired by a third party in the settlement. Imagine their surprise when they had to compete with my client's ex-employee who set himself up in a software maintenance business at 1/2 industry rates. How did he know who to call on and what software they had? The case is still in litigation, but that guy's name will forever be dirt in this town.
- A contractor at one of my clients accidently left a thumb drive on a desk he was using. It had 70,000 social security numbers on it. What were they to think?
I could go on and on. They are some real slime balls out there. There are also plenty of good people who make stupid decisions to save a little time because "it doesn't make much difference anyway". How are people supposed to know the difference?
And when it comes to technology, many business people are doubly in the dark. Sometimes, TRUST is all they've got. It's so ridiculously easy for many of us to earn a nice living (try digging ditches instead), why would you ever jeapordize that over something so trivial?
I hope it doesn't feel like a debate, I am just trying to see your side of this because if I felt that what I was doing was unethical or even in a "grey area", I would not be doing it. The reason I keep coming back to this thread is not because I want to win an argument, but because I might be wrong.
I agree with you that drawing the ethical line wherever it is most convenient is bad. In fact, I have discussed or debated ethics online a few times in the past, and I was always in your position, saying that the issue is black and white no matter how convenient it would be otherwise. Perhaps this is why I am so interested in this thread, now that I am on the other end of it.
Anyway, thanks for your insight. Although I am still not convinced that anything I did was unethical, I will think twice before looking at past work again.
It hasn't felt like a debate. Just a real interesting topic. And, who knows, maybe we got one of those chicken leg buffet people to thinking here - this discussion may save someone a whole bunch of trouble years down the line.
Every once in a while, it's nice to say that which goes without saying.
well :)
which is more unethical?
the restaurant throwing away perfectly good food into the trash when there are hungry people in poorer countries (or even a few blocks away in the same city) who haven't eaten chicken in months because they cant afford it? (I know people like that).
OR
the "chicken leg buffet" person. He paid full price for his buffet, only his stomach can contain 2 legs, and he does not wish to greedily stuff himself with 6 legs.
or what if he took 4 legs on his plate, and out of a good conscience, cannot throw 2 uneaten legs away?
point: it is hard to judge other people.