First, I'm still on the fence in regards to the quality of discussion here. I think there's a tendency for familiarity to breed contempt (the more familiar you become with HN, the more aware you are of things like mean discussions, and the more rose-colored your glasses will be when considering what it was like "before"). There have been a few attempts to objectively measure any degradation of the site, and so far they haven't found anything conclusive, as far as I know. So, it might not be as bad as you think.
Second, you start out with a really general point, but then halfway-through fall mostly into a single example. If that's the example that got you thinking about this, then you've let yourself turn a wasted moment reading a pointless comment into quite a large waste of your time. The friendliest way I can think of to respond to that is that it is a very silly thing to do. :-)
What are you even doing online, anyway? I mean, for me, at least, being online makes me feel pretty miserable afterward, especially compared to anything else I could be doing. I'll look at my threads page sometimes and the older my most recent comment is, the happier I am with myself. That means I've been spending time on better things -- and anything other than commenting on a website is a better thing. I don't want to chase you off, but at the same time, sometimes I sit back and think about all the time wasted worldwide since the invention of the online forum, and how little real positive impact there has been from all of that, and it kinda bums me out. I must've blown entire months on Slashdot way back when, and all I remember from that now is ... uhm ... Hellmouth? ... and ... hmm. I forget the second thing. I am literally a happier, better person, for every moment that I'm not online.
Thirdly, although your intentions are good, you are criticizing behavior which leads naturally from the design of the site. How much thoughtful discussion is really possible on a site like this one, where most threads come and go after just a few hours, never to be read again? Hell, I wrote about this 9 months ago (http://robsheldon.com/conversations-online), submitted it to HN (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2423975), where it got a little bit of discussion, and then that was it.
Forums like this one are designed to be topical, not thoughtful. With the invention of internet points -- yay, karma, and all that other nonsense -- people have had more incentive than ever to quickly bang out a single-line joke, get a point for every chuckle, and move on. (One of the things which has gotten me the most yummy internet points was a joke -- http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1102126 -- and, although it was pretty funny, it wasn't nearly as meaningful to me as, say, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3132576).
HN is not a good place for thoughtful, meaningful discussion. It maybe says it wants to be, but the most important things about its design say otherwise. So at some point, you have to ask yourself, "What am I doing here?"
...Every time that I look at this comment for the next few days, I will be ashamed of myself, because I will know that I wasted 15 minutes writing a thing which would be read by a few people for a few hours and then never again, and I could have played a good game of Go instead.
I don't think that forming part of an online discussion is a bad use of time per se. In fact if done well it can be enlightening and stimulating to people beside yourself. It is in pursuit of this standard of excellent conversation that people join certain communities (like HN). If the standard falls they will leave. Many comments are not worth making, but that does not mean that we shouldn't strive to write comments that are.
I disagree when you imply we shouldn't expect thoughtful discussion. This is the only place on the web where I contribute at all and I do so just for the thoughtfulness. Ive always held HN up as a place where people smarter than me hang out and talk and where I could, and really have, learned a lot. Just because the topics don't stick around very long that doesn't mean thoughtful discussion can't be had. It's all over the place around here! I do feel there's been a decline in not just comments but submissions in general but so far it hasn't gotten to the point where it's even close to any other forum or whatever you want to call it.
And you didn't waste your time. I read what you wrote. I enjoyed it. It sparked a discussion, see? But I am going to bed now so I guess that's over... But had this been any other time of day we may have gone back and forth a bit and others might have joined in too. Hours are more than enough to be thoughtful.
Comments
Hmm. There's a lot to unpack here.
First, I'm still on the fence in regards to the quality of discussion here. I think there's a tendency for familiarity to breed contempt (the more familiar you become with HN, the more aware you are of things like mean discussions, and the more rose-colored your glasses will be when considering what it was like "before"). There have been a few attempts to objectively measure any degradation of the site, and so far they haven't found anything conclusive, as far as I know. So, it might not be as bad as you think.
Second, you start out with a really general point, but then halfway-through fall mostly into a single example. If that's the example that got you thinking about this, then you've let yourself turn a wasted moment reading a pointless comment into quite a large waste of your time. The friendliest way I can think of to respond to that is that it is a very silly thing to do. :-)
What are you even doing online, anyway? I mean, for me, at least, being online makes me feel pretty miserable afterward, especially compared to anything else I could be doing. I'll look at my threads page sometimes and the older my most recent comment is, the happier I am with myself. That means I've been spending time on better things -- and anything other than commenting on a website is a better thing. I don't want to chase you off, but at the same time, sometimes I sit back and think about all the time wasted worldwide since the invention of the online forum, and how little real positive impact there has been from all of that, and it kinda bums me out. I must've blown entire months on Slashdot way back when, and all I remember from that now is ... uhm ... Hellmouth? ... and ... hmm. I forget the second thing. I am literally a happier, better person, for every moment that I'm not online.
Thirdly, although your intentions are good, you are criticizing behavior which leads naturally from the design of the site. How much thoughtful discussion is really possible on a site like this one, where most threads come and go after just a few hours, never to be read again? Hell, I wrote about this 9 months ago (http://robsheldon.com/conversations-online), submitted it to HN (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2423975), where it got a little bit of discussion, and then that was it.
Forums like this one are designed to be topical, not thoughtful. With the invention of internet points -- yay, karma, and all that other nonsense -- people have had more incentive than ever to quickly bang out a single-line joke, get a point for every chuckle, and move on. (One of the things which has gotten me the most yummy internet points was a joke -- http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1102126 -- and, although it was pretty funny, it wasn't nearly as meaningful to me as, say, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3132576).
HN is not a good place for thoughtful, meaningful discussion. It maybe says it wants to be, but the most important things about its design say otherwise. So at some point, you have to ask yourself, "What am I doing here?"
...Every time that I look at this comment for the next few days, I will be ashamed of myself, because I will know that I wasted 15 minutes writing a thing which would be read by a few people for a few hours and then never again, and I could have played a good game of Go instead.
I don't think that forming part of an online discussion is a bad use of time per se. In fact if done well it can be enlightening and stimulating to people beside yourself. It is in pursuit of this standard of excellent conversation that people join certain communities (like HN). If the standard falls they will leave. Many comments are not worth making, but that does not mean that we shouldn't strive to write comments that are.
I disagree when you imply we shouldn't expect thoughtful discussion. This is the only place on the web where I contribute at all and I do so just for the thoughtfulness. Ive always held HN up as a place where people smarter than me hang out and talk and where I could, and really have, learned a lot. Just because the topics don't stick around very long that doesn't mean thoughtful discussion can't be had. It's all over the place around here! I do feel there's been a decline in not just comments but submissions in general but so far it hasn't gotten to the point where it's even close to any other forum or whatever you want to call it.
And you didn't waste your time. I read what you wrote. I enjoyed it. It sparked a discussion, see? But I am going to bed now so I guess that's over... But had this been any other time of day we may have gone back and forth a bit and others might have joined in too. Hours are more than enough to be thoughtful.
You never know. What if your post leads to a tantalizing but cryptic offer of a solution?
Okay, I'm done seeding responses, time to sleep like the dead.