Yeah? But not signatures of radiation interacting with atmospheric particles, right? I think surely there’s gotta be a way to detect emitted light spectra, or a change in the spectra of atmospheric chemicals, as they’re reacting with that radiation.
( Although, frankly, IMHO, AGSO (Australian Geological Survey Org) have a similar better document, but lets not quibble )
179 pages of breezing overview with simplified details, note that airborne radimetric surveys with ~ 50 litre sodium iodine crystal packs (that flash on an energy spectrum when a gamma ray interects with them) are flown at 80 metres ground clearance and NOT at 20 km+ ground clearance because of EXPONENTIAL signal strength decay . . .
2003? I find it hard to believe there hasn't been any advancement in 20 years...But also, per https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34555500, if they can detect Gamma and X-ray bursts from thunderclouds via LEO satellites, I'm sure they've figure out a way to map constant ground sources of radiation. :)
Gamma spectrum energy levels for various breakdown decay events haven't changed for somewhat longer than 20 years.
The penetration of a pachinko ball through a volume of various gases, densities, pressures and at tempretures hasn't changed either.
The signature of a Cs137 bolt head sized source on the ground [1] peaks at 662 kev and has the entire atmosphere above, water vapor and all.
That's a lot to push through for a small number of low energy gamm's in order to reach a satellite that would then have to pick out that signature from ALL the ground area below (with no obvious means to determine direction).
This is very different, obviously, to a thunderstorm driven electrical field generating MeV events high above the cloud levels from (presumed) relativistic Bremsstrahlung.
Err, I mean, you do read and understand these links you're providing, I guess?
If not, maybe start there with a picture of what's actually going on here.
There's a source object here, the size of a bolt, it emits a certain amount of detectable energy (why? worth checking) in All directions - at any distance the energy that reaches that far is spread across the surface of a sphere .. the surface area of that increases R-squared and so the energy per unit area decreases with the square of the distance.
Worse still, the energy is in packet form - when it hits or interacts it changes or gets knocked out of the game - what energy survives gets smushed out and down to lower energy levels.
By the time energy from our source reaches a satellite it's been spread out to less than nine tenths of sweet fuck all and stretched out and down shifted to have little discernible form ..
AND .. (here's the big one)
it's also coming out to the satellite alongside the competing signals from several hundred square kilometres of adjacent ground, replete with similar (but initially different) spectra from Potassium, Uranium, Thorium, et al .. that have now all weakened, lost their distinct shape, and been smooshed together in a blender.
The high altitude high energy stuff stands out and proud, the rest is an amorphous blob of bachground radiation .. if you could identify a few counts from a Cs137 source, how would you even know where it came from (other than "probably below")?
Probably work on reading up on detection methods.(See upstream attached overview on basics)
Why don't you read up on it? No need to fake arrogance. I'm the one suggesting new ideas here...not a geiger-counter on a satellite: atmosphere opaque to low-energy gamma/x-rays; but transparent to near-visible photons, right?
So is it really impossible secret projects came up with a way to detect x-ray/gamma via photon emission of collision with atmospheric particles? Sparsity/AI/DSP to work the data... truly impossible?
I have, more or less off and on semi continuously since the 1980s. FWiW I've read and edited multiple versions of guidelines to terrestrial radiometrics from several countries and the international agencies (such as the one I linked above).
No need to fake arrogance.
Just a bald statement of rather dull facts I'm afraid.
Does not sound impossible to me. I get if you're unaware of it or sounds impossible to you, yeah? OK? No worries. This may be related:
Just to be clear .. are you suggesting that a coin sized Cs-137 mining instrumentation source with 667 kev gamma peak might be causing observable cherenkov radiation?
And that no one has noticed or thought to look since 1900 or the post WWII Cold War boom in domain study?
Well doesn’t mean you might not be missing something, or not relating it. Anyway, the blue light is just something related. You know what I’m suggesting, it’s very clear. Why do you have to pretend a weaker version than deal with that?
Anyway, you’ve clearly got skin in the game in this argument, Aussie. I wonder what your role is: an interested observer or an involved party?
It should be clear by now that I've measured and mapped radiation events of several kinds for 40 odd years.
It's clear that you're suggesting there might be some novel as yet unknown way to detect and location pinpoint a coin sized industrial Cs-137 source used in a mining radiation gauge from the distance of a low orbit (?) satellite.
I'm open to hearing how exactly this might be achieved, I'm sure the other person in this parallel discussion would also have an interest, as they stated they're working at a US national lab in precisely this area.
If you turn to that discussion they've addressed the measured and known way in which the gamma radiation falls off with distance .. although they didn't address how that also falls off with air column mass (air pressure, tempreture, water vapor level (humidity)) etc. and determined this is possible to detect in a one second window from 40 metre distance.
It also rather rules out using direct gamma detection of such a weak source from 25km through the full mass of the atmosphere so, again, it'd be nice to have a concrete indication from you of what it might useful to look for.
Concrete, mind, and not more of this handwavy Sir Kenelm Digby Powder of Sympathy [1] remote sensing magic.
Hand wavy huh? Isn't it always those who know the least who have to trump up their pittance with arrogant dismissals of other people's ideas? I think so. Anyway, why don't you try having some power of sympathy for this idea (I posted above): So is it really impossible secret projects came up with a way to detect x-ray/gamma via photon emission from collision with atmospheric particles? Sparsity/AI/DSP to work the data... truly impossible? Does not sound impossible to me. I get if you're unaware of it or sounds impossible to you, yeah? OK? No worries.
So I'm going now. I do not want to do this with you all day. So I hope your day gets better from here, bye! :)
Comments
Yeah? But not signatures of radiation interacting with atmospheric particles, right? I think surely there’s gotta be a way to detect emitted light spectra, or a change in the spectra of atmospheric chemicals, as they’re reacting with that radiation.
Nope.
Not for something that small (as a source) given the atmosphere thickness etc.
If you're interested:
Guidelines for radioelement mapping using gamma ray spectrometry data International Atomic Energy Agency (2003)
https://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/te_1363_web.p...
( Although, frankly, IMHO, AGSO (Australian Geological Survey Org) have a similar better document, but lets not quibble )
179 pages of breezing overview with simplified details, note that airborne radimetric surveys with ~ 50 litre sodium iodine crystal packs (that flash on an energy spectrum when a gamma ray interects with them) are flown at 80 metres ground clearance and NOT at 20 km+ ground clearance because of EXPONENTIAL signal strength decay . . .
2003? I find it hard to believe there hasn't been any advancement in 20 years...But also, per https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34555500, if they can detect Gamma and X-ray bursts from thunderclouds via LEO satellites, I'm sure they've figure out a way to map constant ground sources of radiation. :)
Gamma spectrum energy levels for various breakdown decay events haven't changed for somewhat longer than 20 years.
The penetration of a pachinko ball through a volume of various gases, densities, pressures and at tempretures hasn't changed either.
The signature of a Cs137 bolt head sized source on the ground [1] peaks at 662 kev and has the entire atmosphere above, water vapor and all.
That's a lot to push through for a small number of low energy gamm's in order to reach a satellite that would then have to pick out that signature from ALL the ground area below (with no obvious means to determine direction).
This is very different, obviously, to a thunderstorm driven electrical field generating MeV events high above the cloud levels from (presumed) relativistic Bremsstrahlung.
Err, I mean, you do read and understand these links you're providing, I guess?
If not, maybe start there with a picture of what's actually going on here.
[1] https://www.gammaspectacular.com/blue/gamma_spectra/cs137-sp...
I’m assuming they’re probably not trying to detect directly but interactive signatures, no？
Ooh, what a dick. How nasty! What got into yeuu? :D hahaProbably work on reading up on detection methods.
( See upstream attached overview on basics )
There's a source object here, the size of a bolt, it emits a certain amount of detectable energy (why? worth checking) in All directions - at any distance the energy that reaches that far is spread across the surface of a sphere .. the surface area of that increases R-squared and so the energy per unit area decreases with the square of the distance.
Worse still, the energy is in packet form - when it hits or interacts it changes or gets knocked out of the game - what energy survives gets smushed out and down to lower energy levels.
By the time energy from our source reaches a satellite it's been spread out to less than nine tenths of sweet fuck all and stretched out and down shifted to have little discernible form ..
AND .. (here's the big one)
it's also coming out to the satellite alongside the competing signals from several hundred square kilometres of adjacent ground, replete with similar (but initially different) spectra from Potassium, Uranium, Thorium, et al .. that have now all weakened, lost their distinct shape, and been smooshed together in a blender.
The high altitude high energy stuff stands out and proud, the rest is an amorphous blob of bachground radiation .. if you could identify a few counts from a Cs137 source, how would you even know where it came from (other than "probably below")?
So is it really impossible secret projects came up with a way to detect x-ray/gamma via photon emission of collision with atmospheric particles? Sparsity/AI/DSP to work the data... truly impossible?
Does not sound impossible to me. I get if you're unaware of it or sounds impossible to you, yeah? OK? No worries. This may be related: https://iaea.org/newscenter/news/what-is-cherenkov-radiation
I have, more or less off and on semi continuously since the 1980s. FWiW I've read and edited multiple versions of guidelines to terrestrial radiometrics from several countries and the international agencies (such as the one I linked above).
Just a bald statement of rather dull facts I'm afraid.
Just to be clear .. are you suggesting that a coin sized Cs-137 mining instrumentation source with 667 kev gamma peak might be causing observable cherenkov radiation?
And that no one has noticed or thought to look since 1900 or the post WWII Cold War boom in domain study?
That's an interesting notion.
Well doesn’t mean you might not be missing something, or not relating it. Anyway, the blue light is just something related. You know what I’m suggesting, it’s very clear. Why do you have to pretend a weaker version than deal with that?
Anyway, you’ve clearly got skin in the game in this argument, Aussie. I wonder what your role is: an interested observer or an involved party?
Why are you wondering?
It should be clear by now that I've measured and mapped radiation events of several kinds for 40 odd years.
It's clear that you're suggesting there might be some novel as yet unknown way to detect and location pinpoint a coin sized industrial Cs-137 source used in a mining radiation gauge from the distance of a low orbit (?) satellite.
I'm open to hearing how exactly this might be achieved, I'm sure the other person in this parallel discussion would also have an interest, as they stated they're working at a US national lab in precisely this area.
If you turn to that discussion they've addressed the measured and known way in which the gamma radiation falls off with distance .. although they didn't address how that also falls off with air column mass (air pressure, tempreture, water vapor level (humidity)) etc. and determined this is possible to detect in a one second window from 40 metre distance.
It also rather rules out using direct gamma detection of such a weak source from 25km through the full mass of the atmosphere so, again, it'd be nice to have a concrete indication from you of what it might useful to look for.
Concrete, mind, and not more of this handwavy Sir Kenelm Digby Powder of Sympathy [1] remote sensing magic.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_of_sympathy
Hand wavy huh? Isn't it always those who know the least who have to trump up their pittance with arrogant dismissals of other people's ideas? I think so. Anyway, why don't you try having some power of sympathy for this idea (I posted above): So is it really impossible secret projects came up with a way to detect x-ray/gamma via photon emission from collision with atmospheric particles? Sparsity/AI/DSP to work the data... truly impossible? Does not sound impossible to me. I get if you're unaware of it or sounds impossible to you, yeah? OK? No worries.
So I'm going now. I do not want to do this with you all day. So I hope your day gets better from here, bye! :)
possibly relevant: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13646... "Estimate of the source parameters of terrestrial gamma-ray flashes observed at low-Earth-orbit satellites"