The key to the success of Rick and Morty is that it's a very subversive show, sometimes to the point of being disturbing. Its embrace of comedic nihilism undermines classic sitcom tropes in much the way The Simpsons did when it was new. I always got the impression that this stemmed in no small part from Justin Roiland. It's not exactly a surprise that someone with so little regard for social convention turned out to have untenable personal attributes, but I wonder if Rick and Morty will continue to have "bite" without him.
That said, if it also results in the exorcism of Rick and Morty's more toxic subtexts ("it's fine to be an asshole if you're smart" and "most people are dull and provincial and their concerns deserve ridicule"), it's probably a net win. We shall see.
I would say it's more a deconstruction of fiction, generally, rather than subversion of sitcoms. Most plots are decidedly non-sitcommy.
I would also say Dan Harmon's previous work on Community is so filled to the brim with meta-analyses, parodies, homages, and self reflection that it's probably more him than Justin on the writing side.
I'd ALSO say that I don't think Rick and Morty suggests Rick's behaviors or beliefs are praiseworthy. The dude is super depressed and toxic. Including of course the episode in which his toxicity become manifest.
Super depressed and toxic and always right. He's shown as being that way because he understands the world better. The show might not praise him directly, but until the most recent seasons (where they appear to be trying to undo some damage) it consistently showed that he is a more effective person because of it.
Another example of the subversion that reinforces this "truth = negativity" moral:
(Spoilers)
The episode where they're trapped in the house with shapeshifting memory-modifying aliens pretending to be loved family members. Traditionally you would expect such a problem to be resolved through the power of love, or some other positive quality that bonds the family in a way the aliens can't fake. Rick and Morty inverts it and the problem is solved through the power of resentment. The message is clear - reality is ugly and messy and painful, and "love" is a powerful illusion created to fill a biological purpose, and you should be suspicious of it if you want to act rationally, which you should. Admittedly, the Mr Poopybutthole denouement partially redeems the episode by subverting its own point and cautioning against taking it too far, but the same message crops up too often in Rick and Morty to be ignored.
Being right does generally lead to being depressed and "toxic", because people (one's self and others) aren't happy thinking in terms of cold hard truths. At least that is my experience.
The constructive analysis is the show isn't meant to be an example for fully formed adults to emulate. Rather it's a coping mechanism. Have you ever had to spend weeks of your life dealing with bureaucrats, while they drown you with their sea of forms and policies? cf. "They're just robots, Morty!". That does not inspire me to go out and start shooting bureaucrats as they do in the show. Rather I just appreciate someone else casually cutting through to the ugly dynamic of the social mire.
The main difference between Rick and real-world intelligence is that Rick just blurts things out while those of us in the real world learn to tone it down and be highly selective about attacking social consensuses. But Rick blurting things out is the only way for the viewer to know them - the show isn't based around his internal monologue.
Additionally there are a lot of kids figuring out their place in the world, and looking for truths they can trust. Being technically correct is one of those truths. That some kids end up emulating the whole character is just stupid youthful experimentation that we all look back on and cringe. The fact they're expressing it on web forums and you're reading it and can't see that it was written by a prepubescent noob has more to do with the vanishing spaces of childhood than anything else.
I disagree. The message is clear that reality is messy. But not that love is an illusion. Those two messages aren't hand in hand. In the time stop episode he explicitly sacrifices himself for love and reflects on that. Most Ricks don't seem to love their grandkids but the main Rick does. This has been a plot point since season 1.
I think Rick was frequently wrong even in early material. He was wrong about the planet being ruled by advanced males that lost the need for females. He was wrong about his relationship with Unity and nearly kills himself for it. He was wrong when he destroyed his own universe. Rick lives in a meaningless world because he's vastly surpassed its limitations. But he's not better for it.
Most plot arcs take an existing concept, writing tactic, plot, or trope, and deconstruct its assumptions to then reconstruct the juicy bits. Like the Purge episode. Rick is too powerful to be bothered by the purge. Gets bored. But ends on gleeful gratuitous violence because its kind of fun. Which gets back to what I would say is the central message of the show. Even if the world is dumb/messy/nihilistic/bad; it can still be awesome. Things can be good without a need for them to be intrinsically good.
I think this is one of the more pressing artistic idea of our times. Same for Everything Everywhere All At Once.
The message is clear that reality is messy. But not that love is an illusion
Rick explicitly states that it is, on several occasions. First, during the love potion episode:
"Listen Morty, I hate to break it to you, but what people calls “love” is just a chemical reaction that compels animals to breed. It hits hard, Morty, then it slowly fades, leaving you stranded in a failing marriage. I did it. Your parents are gonna do it. Break the cycle, Morty. Rise above. Focus on science."
And again at the end of Season 2, during a wedding "toast", he expands on both love being an illusion AND on being smart making him an asshole:
"Listen, I’m not the nicest guy in the Universe because I’m the smartest. And being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets. Now, I haven’t been exactly subtle about how little I trust marriage. I couldn’t make it work, and I could turn a black hole into a sun, so at a certain point, you’ve got to ask yourself what are the odds this is legit and not just some big lie we’re all telling ourselves because we’re afraid to die alone? Because, you know, that’s exactly how we all die … alone." (And before you say "ah but the show isn't endorsing Rick", this message is immediately reinforced by the bride coldly murdering the groom.)
I disagree again! Rick is lying to himself. The first quote is a self destructive drunken rant. The second one is followed by him saying the exact opposite. He loves bird person. He's willing to love tammy.
Even ignoring the canon of future seasons which cements this point further, it had been demonstrated that Rick believes in love, and even clearly juxtaposes himself from the other Ricks who consider their grandsons to be "just" a Morty.
Love can be an illusion of course. And it frequently is. But rick most definitely does not categorically believe all love is illusory.
A significant chunk of iconic comedy characters are horrible people. Basil Fawlty, Blackadder, David Brent, Malcolm Tucker, Homer Simpson, Hyacinth B̶u̶c̶k̶e̶t̶ Bouquet, etc. etc.
Some of these characters have redeemable aspects as well; Homer Simpson is a dedicated family man who clearly very much loves Marge and his kids; there are some scenes that are quite sweet. But he's not being very funny in those scenes, he's being funny when he's selfish, lazy, alcoholic, and generally just a jerk.
Even in comedies where the characters aren't jerks such as Brooklyn 99, many of the characters would still be horrible in actual real life. Can you imagine working with Jake?
Overall, I think it's a mistake to overthink comedic characters too much; sometimes something funny is just funny, and just because character X is horrible doesn't mean the creators are trying to send any sort of message. It's certainly a mistake to emulate these sort of characters or take life lessons from them.
This kind of reminds me of the video game debates. Yes, in video game X you go around shooting people to solve your problems, but in real life you don't. I think everyone understands that.
Rick reminds me of the Elves in Lord of the Rings. Tired, weary of life, sort of past caring; the curse of immortality. Rick has the curse of being nigh-omnipotent.
I'd ALSO say that I don't think Rick and Morty suggests Rick's behaviors or beliefs are praiseworthy. The dude is super depressed and toxic.
I wouldn't say they're praiseworthy, but - and forgive me for any ignorance here - it's often felt like a strong, vocal portion of the show's/Rick's fanbase comes from this type of person.
shrug. I'm not sure what the name is for the inverse of leopard ate my face but this falls squarely in the bucket of people getting mad and surprised when they find out rage against the machine was opposed to the machine. Lots of people will pay not attention to the art they consume and assume that because they like it, it agrees with their beliefs. It's not a reflection on the art.
yeah i kind of thought the entire point was that dan harmon has a very particular view on what fiction is and how it works. He then deconstructs this in every episode. In season 3 he starts deconstructing what television is. In season 4 he starts deconstructing his own theory of story telling. In season 5 he deconstructs the universe he created. the cleverness of the show comes from it's constant deconstruction of storytelling and each iteration doing it in a different way is what makes it work. And i would say the difference between this show and Community is that nobody seems to tone down this deconstruction in any way.
It's not exactly a surprise that someone with so little regard for social convention turned out to have untenable personal attributes, but I wonder if Rick and Morty will continue to have "bite" without him.
See I used to go back and forth on this, until I realized something: Will Arnett is absolutely nothing like Bojack Horseman, one of the single most vile characters I've ever had on my tv screen. I think people (not necessarily you!) have this implicit acceptance that "in order to make disturbing/serious/dramatic/[insert intense or dark adjective] art the person has to be broken or embody it in some way." I really don't accept this, nor do I think the character one plays is a reflection on who they are for the vast majority of actors out there.
Sure in hindsight Roiland's brand of humor makes sense given who he is, but frankly plenty of horrific characters have been depicted - or written - by people who are 0% like them.
I'm not sure if this is meant to be sarcastic (I'm not familiar with Million Dollar Extreme), but in any case I want to draw attention to a particular piece of subversion that encapsulates everything good and bad about Rick and Morty.
(Spoilers)
In the very first season, there's an episode where Rick reluctantly helps Morty attract his crush with a "love potion". Now this is obviously messed up, but it's a classic trope that pops up in all sorts of mythology. We've all seen it and we know how it goes - generally it blows up in some sort of monkey's paw way and the offenders get some sort of poetic comeuppance, lending the story a satisfying resolution and a clear moral. Rick and Morty goes out of its way to subvert this - it blows up alright, we saw that coming a mile off, but everyone in the world except the protagonists are gruesomely affected. And they don't resolve the problem, they run away. With no negative consequences for them whatsoever. They get to keep living their lives as before, while their original family and everyone else they knew continues to suffer horrifically offscreen. Sitcom does not reset. Morty is traumatized and Rick just shrugs. The end.
This is a shocking thing to see on TV. It sends all kinds of terrible messages. And perhaps that's the very reason why it was so captivating, why Rick and Morty felt so fresh. It was making a very clear statement that in the RIck and Morty universe, normal dramatic tropes don't apply. Poetic justice can't be relied upon, just like in real life. Anything can happen.
It was making a very clear statement that in the RIck and Morty universe, normal dramatic tropes don't apply.
How does it not apply when Morty is traumatised by the experience? The show doesn't hide the fact that Rick is traumatised (by all of the experiences they had been to) either, he's just better at hiding it.
I think the moral and message and consequences are stronger in Rick and Morty than your usual sitcom.
Your usual sitcom the heroes are infallible and get at most a slip on the wrist. Here the narrator is saying, this anti hero is so bad he could literally destroy the whole world. He can't undo his mistakes because some mistakes are beyond even his abilities to undo.
We're resetting the situation because that's what sitcoms have to do, but it's the opposite of a happy ending. That's the message I got at least. Similar to the vat of acid episode. That actions have consequences and not all mistakes can be corrected.
It's actually the normal sitcom heroes that get away with everything by virtue of plot armor or plot ingenuity, while Rick and Morty cynically reset it because the show must go on, while hinting strongly that this is the only reason it's allowed and consequences were as real as they could be.
It's out of proportion. They permanently destroy the world, and the only consequence is that Morty feels bad about it. Rick is annoyed, but at a level more consistent with Morty breaking a vase - a valuable, beautiful, but ultimately replaceable object. It's implied that Rick has done this sort of thing many times before.
That's a better lesson than the common Deus ex machina that puts everything right. Them being able to flee and things appearing normal is still half the way to that, of course. The full lesson would be if there were no parallel worlds and they were just stuck there for several episodes, only to die and the show to end. But how it played is still a long way from the usual "our horrible actions had no significant consequences!"
Sounds repulsive, really. And this is supposed to be a comedy? I guess I don't get it for the same reason I don't get the love for "Breaking Bad." I'm a cynic but not a nihilist.
I mean, comedy is heavily reliant on the element of surprise. Being set up to expect a particular story progression and then having that expectation flipped on its head is funny, when executed with an appropriate sense of timing. The more subconscious your expectations, the funnier it is when they are subverted. The challenge, which Rick and Morty rises to unusually well, is continuing to surprise the audience in unusual ways. Any formula will get boring after a while, including "do the opposite of normal tropes".
Speaking of surprise, your wording implies you haven't seen the show, in which case you shouldn't be reading this thread.
He's also been exposed as having sent sexually explicit DMs to minors, which started to come to light after the lawsuit was filed. It was probably that, more than/in addition to the lawsuit, that led to Adult Swim dropping him.
I looked into it because I had the same initial reaction you did. It's pretty terrible stuff, dude's got some issues
Comments
The key to the success of Rick and Morty is that it's a very subversive show, sometimes to the point of being disturbing. Its embrace of comedic nihilism undermines classic sitcom tropes in much the way The Simpsons did when it was new. I always got the impression that this stemmed in no small part from Justin Roiland. It's not exactly a surprise that someone with so little regard for social convention turned out to have untenable personal attributes, but I wonder if Rick and Morty will continue to have "bite" without him.
That said, if it also results in the exorcism of Rick and Morty's more toxic subtexts ("it's fine to be an asshole if you're smart" and "most people are dull and provincial and their concerns deserve ridicule"), it's probably a net win. We shall see.
I would say it's more a deconstruction of fiction, generally, rather than subversion of sitcoms. Most plots are decidedly non-sitcommy.
I would also say Dan Harmon's previous work on Community is so filled to the brim with meta-analyses, parodies, homages, and self reflection that it's probably more him than Justin on the writing side.
I'd ALSO say that I don't think Rick and Morty suggests Rick's behaviors or beliefs are praiseworthy. The dude is super depressed and toxic. Including of course the episode in which his toxicity become manifest.
Super depressed and toxic and always right. He's shown as being that way because he understands the world better. The show might not praise him directly, but until the most recent seasons (where they appear to be trying to undo some damage) it consistently showed that he is a more effective person because of it.
Another example of the subversion that reinforces this "truth = negativity" moral:
(Spoilers)
The episode where they're trapped in the house with shapeshifting memory-modifying aliens pretending to be loved family members. Traditionally you would expect such a problem to be resolved through the power of love, or some other positive quality that bonds the family in a way the aliens can't fake. Rick and Morty inverts it and the problem is solved through the power of resentment. The message is clear - reality is ugly and messy and painful, and "love" is a powerful illusion created to fill a biological purpose, and you should be suspicious of it if you want to act rationally, which you should. Admittedly, the Mr Poopybutthole denouement partially redeems the episode by subverting its own point and cautioning against taking it too far, but the same message crops up too often in Rick and Morty to be ignored.
Being right does generally lead to being depressed and "toxic", because people (one's self and others) aren't happy thinking in terms of cold hard truths. At least that is my experience.
The constructive analysis is the show isn't meant to be an example for fully formed adults to emulate. Rather it's a coping mechanism. Have you ever had to spend weeks of your life dealing with bureaucrats, while they drown you with their sea of forms and policies? cf. "They're just robots, Morty!". That does not inspire me to go out and start shooting bureaucrats as they do in the show. Rather I just appreciate someone else casually cutting through to the ugly dynamic of the social mire.
The main difference between Rick and real-world intelligence is that Rick just blurts things out while those of us in the real world learn to tone it down and be highly selective about attacking social consensuses. But Rick blurting things out is the only way for the viewer to know them - the show isn't based around his internal monologue.
Additionally there are a lot of kids figuring out their place in the world, and looking for truths they can trust. Being technically correct is one of those truths. That some kids end up emulating the whole character is just stupid youthful experimentation that we all look back on and cringe. The fact they're expressing it on web forums and you're reading it and can't see that it was written by a prepubescent noob has more to do with the vanishing spaces of childhood than anything else.
I disagree. The message is clear that reality is messy. But not that love is an illusion. Those two messages aren't hand in hand. In the time stop episode he explicitly sacrifices himself for love and reflects on that. Most Ricks don't seem to love their grandkids but the main Rick does. This has been a plot point since season 1.
I think Rick was frequently wrong even in early material. He was wrong about the planet being ruled by advanced males that lost the need for females. He was wrong about his relationship with Unity and nearly kills himself for it. He was wrong when he destroyed his own universe. Rick lives in a meaningless world because he's vastly surpassed its limitations. But he's not better for it.
Most plot arcs take an existing concept, writing tactic, plot, or trope, and deconstruct its assumptions to then reconstruct the juicy bits. Like the Purge episode. Rick is too powerful to be bothered by the purge. Gets bored. But ends on gleeful gratuitous violence because its kind of fun. Which gets back to what I would say is the central message of the show. Even if the world is dumb/messy/nihilistic/bad; it can still be awesome. Things can be good without a need for them to be intrinsically good.
I think this is one of the more pressing artistic idea of our times. Same for Everything Everywhere All At Once.
Rick explicitly states that it is, on several occasions. First, during the love potion episode:
"Listen Morty, I hate to break it to you, but what people calls “love” is just a chemical reaction that compels animals to breed. It hits hard, Morty, then it slowly fades, leaving you stranded in a failing marriage. I did it. Your parents are gonna do it. Break the cycle, Morty. Rise above. Focus on science."
And again at the end of Season 2, during a wedding "toast", he expands on both love being an illusion AND on being smart making him an asshole:
"Listen, I’m not the nicest guy in the Universe because I’m the smartest. And being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets. Now, I haven’t been exactly subtle about how little I trust marriage. I couldn’t make it work, and I could turn a black hole into a sun, so at a certain point, you’ve got to ask yourself what are the odds this is legit and not just some big lie we’re all telling ourselves because we’re afraid to die alone? Because, you know, that’s exactly how we all die … alone." (And before you say "ah but the show isn't endorsing Rick", this message is immediately reinforced by the bride coldly murdering the groom.)
The messaging couldn't really have been clearer.
I disagree again! Rick is lying to himself. The first quote is a self destructive drunken rant. The second one is followed by him saying the exact opposite. He loves bird person. He's willing to love tammy.
Even ignoring the canon of future seasons which cements this point further, it had been demonstrated that Rick believes in love, and even clearly juxtaposes himself from the other Ricks who consider their grandsons to be "just" a Morty.
Love can be an illusion of course. And it frequently is. But rick most definitely does not categorically believe all love is illusory.
A significant chunk of iconic comedy characters are horrible people. Basil Fawlty, Blackadder, David Brent, Malcolm Tucker, Homer Simpson, Hyacinth B̶u̶c̶k̶e̶t̶ Bouquet, etc. etc.
Some of these characters have redeemable aspects as well; Homer Simpson is a dedicated family man who clearly very much loves Marge and his kids; there are some scenes that are quite sweet. But he's not being very funny in those scenes, he's being funny when he's selfish, lazy, alcoholic, and generally just a jerk.
Even in comedies where the characters aren't jerks such as Brooklyn 99, many of the characters would still be horrible in actual real life. Can you imagine working with Jake?
Overall, I think it's a mistake to overthink comedic characters too much; sometimes something funny is just funny, and just because character X is horrible doesn't mean the creators are trying to send any sort of message. It's certainly a mistake to emulate these sort of characters or take life lessons from them.
This kind of reminds me of the video game debates. Yes, in video game X you go around shooting people to solve your problems, but in real life you don't. I think everyone understands that.
Rick reminds me of the Elves in Lord of the Rings. Tired, weary of life, sort of past caring; the curse of immortality. Rick has the curse of being nigh-omnipotent.
I wouldn't say they're praiseworthy, but - and forgive me for any ignorance here - it's often felt like a strong, vocal portion of the show's/Rick's fanbase comes from this type of person.
Oh totally. There is a large segment of Rick and Morty fans who have not internalised that Rick Sanchez is _not_ a role model.
They lay out that he is not a role model pretty clearly here: https://www.themarysue.com/pickle-rick-therapy/
shrug. I'm not sure what the name is for the inverse of leopard ate my face but this falls squarely in the bucket of people getting mad and surprised when they find out rage against the machine was opposed to the machine. Lots of people will pay not attention to the art they consume and assume that because they like it, it agrees with their beliefs. It's not a reflection on the art.
yeah i kind of thought the entire point was that dan harmon has a very particular view on what fiction is and how it works. He then deconstructs this in every episode. In season 3 he starts deconstructing what television is. In season 4 he starts deconstructing his own theory of story telling. In season 5 he deconstructs the universe he created. the cleverness of the show comes from it's constant deconstruction of storytelling and each iteration doing it in a different way is what makes it work. And i would say the difference between this show and Community is that nobody seems to tone down this deconstruction in any way.
See I used to go back and forth on this, until I realized something: Will Arnett is absolutely nothing like Bojack Horseman, one of the single most vile characters I've ever had on my tv screen. I think people (not necessarily you!) have this implicit acceptance that "in order to make disturbing/serious/dramatic/[insert intense or dark adjective] art the person has to be broken or embody it in some way." I really don't accept this, nor do I think the character one plays is a reflection on who they are for the vast majority of actors out there.
Sure in hindsight Roiland's brand of humor makes sense given who he is, but frankly plenty of horrific characters have been depicted - or written - by people who are 0% like them.
Very subversive. We're talking Million Dollar Extreme levels! (Wait, no; then it'd be canceled already.)
I'm not sure if this is meant to be sarcastic (I'm not familiar with Million Dollar Extreme), but in any case I want to draw attention to a particular piece of subversion that encapsulates everything good and bad about Rick and Morty.
(Spoilers)
In the very first season, there's an episode where Rick reluctantly helps Morty attract his crush with a "love potion". Now this is obviously messed up, but it's a classic trope that pops up in all sorts of mythology. We've all seen it and we know how it goes - generally it blows up in some sort of monkey's paw way and the offenders get some sort of poetic comeuppance, lending the story a satisfying resolution and a clear moral. Rick and Morty goes out of its way to subvert this - it blows up alright, we saw that coming a mile off, but everyone in the world except the protagonists are gruesomely affected. And they don't resolve the problem, they run away. With no negative consequences for them whatsoever. They get to keep living their lives as before, while their original family and everyone else they knew continues to suffer horrifically offscreen. Sitcom does not reset. Morty is traumatized and Rick just shrugs. The end.
This is a shocking thing to see on TV. It sends all kinds of terrible messages. And perhaps that's the very reason why it was so captivating, why Rick and Morty felt so fresh. It was making a very clear statement that in the RIck and Morty universe, normal dramatic tropes don't apply. Poetic justice can't be relied upon, just like in real life. Anything can happen.
How does it not apply when Morty is traumatised by the experience? The show doesn't hide the fact that Rick is traumatised (by all of the experiences they had been to) either, he's just better at hiding it.
I think the moral and message and consequences are stronger in Rick and Morty than your usual sitcom.
Your usual sitcom the heroes are infallible and get at most a slip on the wrist. Here the narrator is saying, this anti hero is so bad he could literally destroy the whole world. He can't undo his mistakes because some mistakes are beyond even his abilities to undo.
We're resetting the situation because that's what sitcoms have to do, but it's the opposite of a happy ending. That's the message I got at least. Similar to the vat of acid episode. That actions have consequences and not all mistakes can be corrected.
It's actually the normal sitcom heroes that get away with everything by virtue of plot armor or plot ingenuity, while Rick and Morty cynically reset it because the show must go on, while hinting strongly that this is the only reason it's allowed and consequences were as real as they could be.
It's out of proportion. They permanently destroy the world, and the only consequence is that Morty feels bad about it. Rick is annoyed, but at a level more consistent with Morty breaking a vase - a valuable, beautiful, but ultimately replaceable object. It's implied that Rick has done this sort of thing many times before.
That's a better lesson than the common Deus ex machina that puts everything right. Them being able to flee and things appearing normal is still half the way to that, of course. The full lesson would be if there were no parallel worlds and they were just stuck there for several episodes, only to die and the show to end. But how it played is still a long way from the usual "our horrible actions had no significant consequences!"
Sounds repulsive, really. And this is supposed to be a comedy? I guess I don't get it for the same reason I don't get the love for "Breaking Bad." I'm a cynic but not a nihilist.
I mean, comedy is heavily reliant on the element of surprise. Being set up to expect a particular story progression and then having that expectation flipped on its head is funny, when executed with an appropriate sense of timing. The more subconscious your expectations, the funnier it is when they are subverted. The challenge, which Rick and Morty rises to unusually well, is continuing to surprise the audience in unusual ways. Any formula will get boring after a while, including "do the opposite of normal tropes".
Speaking of surprise, your wording implies you haven't seen the show, in which case you shouldn't be reading this thread.
Did he, though? Accusations are not evidence.
I think it is universally a mistake to read accusations by the criminal justice system uncritically, given what we know about their incentives.
He's also been exposed as having sent sexually explicit DMs to minors, which started to come to light after the lawsuit was filed. It was probably that, more than/in addition to the lawsuit, that led to Adult Swim dropping him.
I looked into it because I had the same initial reaction you did. It's pretty terrible stuff, dude's got some issues
It's not just that, I'm afraid:
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/10cum8n/comme...
Very curious to hear you unpack this little addition.