Right sorry if I my writing seemed to imply differently, I was definitely talking about time and materials vs project. I was just adding cometary to the discussion and not trying to refute a position, I apologize if my wording did not convey that. what I was trying to say was if a person is scared of by a day rate, because they want a total rate then I tend to shy away from those projects. I will provide an estimate of what I think it will take, but there is an understanding that due to the nature of software development that estimate will change the first time they change their mind. Which always happens in software development.