I think everyone here is missing the point of moot's comment. I read this as commentary on anonymity and honest discussion.
Ignore YouTube and 4chan's /b/ board for the moment. If you look at some of the communities at reddit, for instance, there are subjects that are discussed thorougly which would never see the light of day if their authors had to appear before their friends with their full name and picture. Some of these discussions have shed light on parts of humanity and human nature that I would have never known about if it wasn't for anonymous internet forums. For instance interviews with psychopaths and murderers, mean stories about ex-girlfriends and boyfriends, candid and unpainted interviews with sex workers etc etc etc. In general, the stuff that doesn't come up in polite conversation and everyone pretends not to be associated with. Some of these discussions have changed my views on both political issues and more mundane things. All because someone is suddenly allowed to broadcast forbidden stories to a large crowd. And people are allowed to comment on it without fear of being judged or socially persecuted.
The difference in the style of comments on Facebook and reddit perfectly exemplify what happens with civil discussion when people are allowed to be anonymous, and the huge difference in behavior and mindset that this causes in Western society. It is a pretty big deal.
I think marvin has an excellent point: people as a universal culture tend to shun certain subjects and embrace others, and these change between nations, faiths, etc.. The availability of an anonymous forum in which to address these shunned portions ideas is a useful tool when it is leveraged in the right way. There are many things people would not say if they were to be held personally accountable for their thoughts and feelings by those who would rather punish their "abnormal" beliefs than appreciate their candid honesty.
I think the major issue here is the responsible use of the Anonymous tag. Too many hateful, prejudicial, or otherwise ignorant comments are tossed out from behind that shield of "you can't see me" that is the anonymous internet, and this becomes the norm by which others come to judge such communities. I firmly believe that our state of being as a society indicates there must be a striation in the internet: one where we are who we are, and one where we can discuss counter-culture or taboo subjects without fear of reprisal. Ideally these would be the same place, but realistically they cannot be until our society becomes much more accepting of itself.
(Also, I've never commented on here, but HN is the Bee Knees.)
You have a good point about people who hide behind anonymity just to cause damage. Thankfully, the latest generation of Internet forums has been able to keep these voices confined to places where they don't cause any damage, or, in the case of /b/, in an environment where they can actually generate something worthwhile.
I'm not sure we will ever see a society which is so diverse and open that many of the views we see in internet forums could be brought into the wider public area. It would be awesome if this happened, because you often see groups of people who have interests and views which are considered unfit in most public gatherings (a mundane example that many of us are familiar with is simply admitting that you're a nerd and talking about a technically complicated subject), but which could flourish if the people who have them were brought together. There is an idea of "the normal" which almost everyone tries to adhere to, while repressing the ideas and impulses they really care about.
In the meantime it is still very valuable to have a place where it's possible to be honest. There are way too many games and too much acting in Western society. This might be the case everywhere, but the West is the only culture I know well enough to be sure.
>In the meantime it is still very valuable to have a place where it's possible to be honest.
It's also a place where you can be completely dishonest, make up stories, be someone else with almost no repercussions. I think most people are being honest on reddit or HN, but the small percent that like to make up stories, personas, etc. makes it difficult for me to fully trust many of the comments I come across.
I don't see a way of distinguishing between bad behaviour and discussing taboo topics. They're so often the same thing - consider flat out racism or misogyny for example. An things get even more complicated when you consider /b/-like levels of irony and inversion of meaning, where it;s difficult to tell what is a incredibly subtle troll of racists, and what is actual racism.
But I'm glad that the whole internet isn't /b/. I'm glad that terrible perspectives are often shunned from conversations. It's good to remember they're there, but if someone comes along and expresses terrible things then they should feel shame. And that only happens if those perspectives are not welcome, and are made to feel not welcome.
I think the community has as much to do with discussion as anonymity. r/programming, r/technology, r/hacking are pretty simmilar in topic, though with less emphasis on buisiness/econ. But the comment style is totally different.
As obvious as it is that community changes discussion quality, I think it's overlooked in the whole anonymity debate. HN's been doing just fine, for the most part.
I haven't been here for long, but isn't HN at least as anonymous as reddit?
There is so much pushing for de-anonymization from corporations and governments, that places like 4chan or reddit are those rare gardens of free speech in their purest sense that are most important to keep alive.
That 4chan is a bastion of cultural output is not something to be ignored, either, and that's something I'd hope even anti-free-speech advocates can recognize.
Comments
I think everyone here is missing the point of moot's comment. I read this as commentary on anonymity and honest discussion.
Ignore YouTube and 4chan's /b/ board for the moment. If you look at some of the communities at reddit, for instance, there are subjects that are discussed thorougly which would never see the light of day if their authors had to appear before their friends with their full name and picture. Some of these discussions have shed light on parts of humanity and human nature that I would have never known about if it wasn't for anonymous internet forums. For instance interviews with psychopaths and murderers, mean stories about ex-girlfriends and boyfriends, candid and unpainted interviews with sex workers etc etc etc. In general, the stuff that doesn't come up in polite conversation and everyone pretends not to be associated with. Some of these discussions have changed my views on both political issues and more mundane things. All because someone is suddenly allowed to broadcast forbidden stories to a large crowd. And people are allowed to comment on it without fear of being judged or socially persecuted.
The difference in the style of comments on Facebook and reddit perfectly exemplify what happens with civil discussion when people are allowed to be anonymous, and the huge difference in behavior and mindset that this causes in Western society. It is a pretty big deal.
I think marvin has an excellent point: people as a universal culture tend to shun certain subjects and embrace others, and these change between nations, faiths, etc.. The availability of an anonymous forum in which to address these shunned portions ideas is a useful tool when it is leveraged in the right way. There are many things people would not say if they were to be held personally accountable for their thoughts and feelings by those who would rather punish their "abnormal" beliefs than appreciate their candid honesty.
I think the major issue here is the responsible use of the Anonymous tag. Too many hateful, prejudicial, or otherwise ignorant comments are tossed out from behind that shield of "you can't see me" that is the anonymous internet, and this becomes the norm by which others come to judge such communities. I firmly believe that our state of being as a society indicates there must be a striation in the internet: one where we are who we are, and one where we can discuss counter-culture or taboo subjects without fear of reprisal. Ideally these would be the same place, but realistically they cannot be until our society becomes much more accepting of itself.
(Also, I've never commented on here, but HN is the Bee Knees.)
You have a good point about people who hide behind anonymity just to cause damage. Thankfully, the latest generation of Internet forums has been able to keep these voices confined to places where they don't cause any damage, or, in the case of /b/, in an environment where they can actually generate something worthwhile.
I'm not sure we will ever see a society which is so diverse and open that many of the views we see in internet forums could be brought into the wider public area. It would be awesome if this happened, because you often see groups of people who have interests and views which are considered unfit in most public gatherings (a mundane example that many of us are familiar with is simply admitting that you're a nerd and talking about a technically complicated subject), but which could flourish if the people who have them were brought together. There is an idea of "the normal" which almost everyone tries to adhere to, while repressing the ideas and impulses they really care about.
In the meantime it is still very valuable to have a place where it's possible to be honest. There are way too many games and too much acting in Western society. This might be the case everywhere, but the West is the only culture I know well enough to be sure.
>In the meantime it is still very valuable to have a place where it's possible to be honest.
It's also a place where you can be completely dishonest, make up stories, be someone else with almost no repercussions. I think most people are being honest on reddit or HN, but the small percent that like to make up stories, personas, etc. makes it difficult for me to fully trust many of the comments I come across.
just because you know somebody's name, doesn't make them honest either, if it did politics would be a whole different ballgame.
It does mean that their lies can be tagged back against them.
A name, a "real name" has a certain irrevocability to it.
I don't see a way of distinguishing between bad behaviour and discussing taboo topics. They're so often the same thing - consider flat out racism or misogyny for example. An things get even more complicated when you consider /b/-like levels of irony and inversion of meaning, where it;s difficult to tell what is a incredibly subtle troll of racists, and what is actual racism.
But I'm glad that the whole internet isn't /b/. I'm glad that terrible perspectives are often shunned from conversations. It's good to remember they're there, but if someone comes along and expresses terrible things then they should feel shame. And that only happens if those perspectives are not welcome, and are made to feel not welcome.
I think the community has as much to do with discussion as anonymity. r/programming, r/technology, r/hacking are pretty simmilar in topic, though with less emphasis on buisiness/econ. But the comment style is totally different.
As obvious as it is that community changes discussion quality, I think it's overlooked in the whole anonymity debate. HN's been doing just fine, for the most part.
I haven't been here for long, but isn't HN at least as anonymous as reddit?
There is so much pushing for de-anonymization from corporations and governments, that places like 4chan or reddit are those rare gardens of free speech in their purest sense that are most important to keep alive.
That 4chan is a bastion of cultural output is not something to be ignored, either, and that's something I'd hope even anti-free-speech advocates can recognize.