I posted a similar comment, but it's not the same - AZ uses a modified non-Covid virus that has been engineered to model the spike protein. I'm not sure why that spike protein is different than the MRNA, other than being attached to a virus.
The instructions for producing the spike protein are released by the virus. Your body produces the spike protein, just like with an mrna vaccine. The difference between the vaccines is the delivery method of the instructions (spike recipes.)
"In this type of vaccine, genetic material from the COVID-19 virus is placed in a modified version of a different virus (viral vector). When the viral vector gets into your cells, it delivers genetic material from the COVID-19 virus that gives your cells instructions to make copies of the S protein. Once your cells display the S proteins on their surfaces, your immune system responds by creating antibodies and defensive white blood cells."
"Viral vector vaccines also work by giving cells genetic instructions to produce antigens. But they differ from nucleic acid vaccines in that they use a harmless virus, different from the one the vaccine is targeting, to deliver these instructions into the cell. One type of virus that has often been used as a vector is adenovirus, which causes the common cold. As with nucleic acid vaccines, our own cellular machinery is hijacked to produce the antigen from those instructions, in order to trigger an immune response."
"The adenovirus goes in and does its normal infection route; all that machinery is intact.. But in this case, the DNA payload that's delivered into your cells is not a big set of instructions for making more adenoviruses, it's a much shorter sequence that codes for the coronavirus spike protein instead. So the modified DNA gets transcribed to messenger RNA in your cells (and that's the exact step that the mRNA vaccines jump in at if you take them), and this mRNA is taken up by ribosomes and translated into the Spike protein itself."
"This class uses some other infectious virus, but with its original genetic material removed. In its place goes genetic instructions to make coronavirus proteins, and when your infected cells do that, these proteins will set off an immune response. Note that this is different than being infected with a “real” virus, whose instructions are (naturally enough) to produce more virus, which go off and infect more cells. No, in this case each viral particle that you’re injected with will be able to infect one cell, and that’s it. "
The virus pollutes the body with spike protein recipes. There are absolutely not spike proteins on the surface of the vector virus.
If it was just reaction to the spike protein then why is myocarditis more likely on the second vaccination?
I think it is therefore more likely that adaptive immune system is involved because it has ability to remember.
Now is it possible that spike protein itself or lipid shell is causing this based on incidence rate differences between 3 vaccines?
Hard to say.
The amount of spike protein produced is in correlation with amount of mRNA entering cells. The amount of mRNA entering cells is 3x higher with Moderna vaccine than with Pfizer vaccine and it appears that it is similar on both shots (first and second). But the amount of mRNA (converted from adenovirus DNA) entering cells with the second AZ shot is probably lower than on the first shot because there is also some immunity against the adenovirus and the dose size is the same.
This is in correlation with the amount of antibodies produced by these vaccines.
This is the not contradicting with the observation so far.
But it could be also lipid cell that has been found to cause inflammation. Considering the high amount of antibodies generated on the second vaccination, it is plausible that the lipid shells are not attacked by the immune system directly. But it might be possible that the cells are attacked after lipid shells have merged with their membranes.
There are few ways to find how what is most likely happening.
First is to hope that protein based vaccine from Novavax will be used by meaningful amount to detect proper incidence rates. When it is spike protein itself then we should see also high incidence rate on second vaccination.
The second option is to analyze mixed vaccinations where first vaccination was done with adenovirus vaccine and the second one with mRNA vaccine. It is not perfect setup but it might provide some additional information.
Third option is to use a mouse model similar to one in previous study where mouse were intravenously injected with mRNA vaccines. Repeat the study with mRNA vaccine, placebo (saline solution), dummy lipid shells and protein vaccines (might be necessary to do the study without and with the adjuvant).
It should also produce the spike protein I believe, it's just that the triggers for cells to produce it are within an adenovirus, not mrna inside lipids.
Comments
Does the AstraZeneca vaccine not include the spike protein? I thought it included the whole virus including the spike protein.
I posted a similar comment, but it's not the same - AZ uses a modified non-Covid virus that has been engineered to model the spike protein. I'm not sure why that spike protein is different than the MRNA, other than being attached to a virus.
The spike is not attached to the virus, it's produced by the virus.
In both the mrna and viral vector vaccines, the mrna and virus are the DELIVERY mechanism of the payload.
Spike proteins are found on the surface of the virus particles. They aren't released by the virus as some sort of pollutant.
The instructions for producing the spike protein are released by the virus. Your body produces the spike protein, just like with an mrna vaccine. The difference between the vaccines is the delivery method of the instructions (spike recipes.)
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i...
"In this type of vaccine, genetic material from the COVID-19 virus is placed in a modified version of a different virus (viral vector). When the viral vector gets into your cells, it delivers genetic material from the COVID-19 virus that gives your cells instructions to make copies of the S protein. Once your cells display the S proteins on their surfaces, your immune system responds by creating antibodies and defensive white blood cells."
https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/there-are-four-types-covid...
"Viral vector vaccines also work by giving cells genetic instructions to produce antigens. But they differ from nucleic acid vaccines in that they use a harmless virus, different from the one the vaccine is targeting, to deliver these instructions into the cell. One type of virus that has often been used as a vector is adenovirus, which causes the common cold. As with nucleic acid vaccines, our own cellular machinery is hijacked to produce the antigen from those instructions, in order to trigger an immune response."
https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-you-make-adeno...
"The adenovirus goes in and does its normal infection route; all that machinery is intact.. But in this case, the DNA payload that's delivered into your cells is not a big set of instructions for making more adenoviruses, it's a much shorter sequence that codes for the coronavirus spike protein instead. So the modified DNA gets transcribed to messenger RNA in your cells (and that's the exact step that the mRNA vaccines jump in at if you take them), and this mRNA is taken up by ribosomes and translated into the Spike protein itself."
https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/coronavirus-vaccin...
"This class uses some other infectious virus, but with its original genetic material removed. In its place goes genetic instructions to make coronavirus proteins, and when your infected cells do that, these proteins will set off an immune response. Note that this is different than being infected with a “real” virus, whose instructions are (naturally enough) to produce more virus, which go off and infect more cells. No, in this case each viral particle that you’re injected with will be able to infect one cell, and that’s it. "
The virus pollutes the body with spike protein recipes. There are absolutely not spike proteins on the surface of the vector virus.
If it was just reaction to the spike protein then why is myocarditis more likely on the second vaccination?
I think it is therefore more likely that adaptive immune system is involved because it has ability to remember.
Now is it possible that spike protein itself or lipid shell is causing this based on incidence rate differences between 3 vaccines?
Hard to say.
The amount of spike protein produced is in correlation with amount of mRNA entering cells. The amount of mRNA entering cells is 3x higher with Moderna vaccine than with Pfizer vaccine and it appears that it is similar on both shots (first and second). But the amount of mRNA (converted from adenovirus DNA) entering cells with the second AZ shot is probably lower than on the first shot because there is also some immunity against the adenovirus and the dose size is the same.
This is in correlation with the amount of antibodies produced by these vaccines.
This is the not contradicting with the observation so far.
But it could be also lipid cell that has been found to cause inflammation. Considering the high amount of antibodies generated on the second vaccination, it is plausible that the lipid shells are not attacked by the immune system directly. But it might be possible that the cells are attacked after lipid shells have merged with their membranes.
There are few ways to find how what is most likely happening.
First is to hope that protein based vaccine from Novavax will be used by meaningful amount to detect proper incidence rates. When it is spike protein itself then we should see also high incidence rate on second vaccination.
The second option is to analyze mixed vaccinations where first vaccination was done with adenovirus vaccine and the second one with mRNA vaccine. It is not perfect setup but it might provide some additional information.
Third option is to use a mouse model similar to one in previous study where mouse were intravenously injected with mRNA vaccines. Repeat the study with mRNA vaccine, placebo (saline solution), dummy lipid shells and protein vaccines (might be necessary to do the study without and with the adjuvant).
It should also produce the spike protein I believe, it's just that the triggers for cells to produce it are within an adenovirus, not mrna inside lipids.
So I'm not sure what this guy is on about.