It's relevant because considering what other people/places consider normal allows you to recontextualize and examine the frame you are in. The idea that IDs should be required for voting is only a hyper-politicized issue focused on race in the US, and noticing that lets you break your thinking outside that frame to some extent.
Ultimately I am against anything requiring IDs, but so long as I need to show my ID and vaccine card to get seated at a restaurant in SF, it doesn't seem outlandish to me at all that elections should require IDs.
Regarding national IDs, I'm not sure what you think this would look like but frankly that is the whole point of the REAL ID initiative which began in the wake of the Patriot Act reauthorization in 2005. Perhaps you have objections in light of the changes brought on by the REAL ID Modernization Act wherein the SSN requirements were significantly defanged, but IMO the point still remains.
The thing is, I'm aware about how voting is done outside of the US, at least to some extent.
That doesn't explain how readthenotes1's comment is relevant.
The amount of fraud in mail-in-voting is astoundingly low.
Mandatory voter id doesn't seem to provide any benefits except for calming an artificial fear that was hyped just to pass mandatory id laws.
I don't know why you say "focus on race" when the history shows that voter id requirements are there to elect Republicans, of which race is one correlated factor.
Why can a gun license be used as valid id, but a state college id cannot? College students tend to vote for Democrats. Gun owners tend to vote Republican.
Why do DMV offices (where you get ids) tend to close down in poor areas when there are cutbacks? Poor people tend to vote for Democrats.
Now, if we really do look to other countries, we can ask why the DMV is in charge of issuing id. In at least some of those other countries, it is the police which are in charge of ids.
So if we follow readthenotes1's suggestion see what other countries do, my point is that perhaps doing that correctly requires certain prerequisites that don't exist in the US.
so long as I need to show my ID and vaccine card to get seated at a restaurant in SF
I didn't realize that getting seated at a restaurant was a constitutional right.
Why can a gun license be used as valid id, but a state college id cannot? College students tend to vote for Democrats. Gun owners tend to vote Republican.
That's quite the conspiracy theory. Here's a more reasonable explanation: the identity verification that you go through to get a college ID is way more lax than it is to get a gun license or basically any other government-issued ID.
That gotcha answer aside ... since the existing amount of in-person voting fraud is something like a few dozen cases per decade - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_impersonation_(United_St... - what justifies the need for higher strictness than a college id? Or even a city transit id?
the existing amount of in-person voting fraud is something like a few dozen cases per decade
The number of cases we've caught might be low, but when your safeguards are so lax that it's easy to get away with fraud without a trace, that doesn't mean much.
Belgium requires people carry id with them all the time. Does that mean the US should be like Belgium and require everyone carry id?
There's places in the US where you need to bring an ID and your vaccine card everywhere. If we're not willing to require ID to vote, then we should definitely ban that.
Most of those countries have a national id system. Why wouldn't that be a prerequisite for the US?
Why aren't you counting any of passport books, passport cards, or REAL ID-compliant IDs (which are finally available nationwide) as national IDs?
There's a few dozen cases of in-person impersonation voter fraud PER DECADE.
Showing id to vote therefore won't improve things in any meaningful way. While the negatives are easy -- what do you do if you lost your wallet the day before voting day and have no other accepted form of id?
If there are no benefits, why have it at all?
By comparison, from what I read, lots of people cheat the vaccine card system, so an id that helps verify that the vaccine card is indeed for the person presenting the card. The benefits are supposed to be the reduction of the infection rate, the ability to have an alternative to having business shut down either by order, or because of consumer reluctance.
Maybe you disagree with the conclusion of that cost-benefit analysis, but it's far more substantial than the benefits of having voter id.
Why aren't you counting any of passport books, passport cards, or REAL ID-compliant IDs (which are finally available nationwide) as national IDs
Because it's a de facto, ad hoc, and incomplete system that isn't comparable to at least some of those countries.
In some of those countries which require voter id, you can get a valid id from your local police station, or from your bank, or the tax office. While the US ones seems to be centered around a much smaller number of DMV offices.
In Belgium, everyone is supposed to have an id. In the US, something like 9% of the population doesn't have an id which would be acceptable for voting. (Eg, don't drive because of age, illness, poverty, or live in a place with good mass transit.)
As a reminder, double voting (voting in more than one district) is also a form of voter fraud. Though, oddly, it isn't always illegal! - https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/double... . Even when illegal, it is NOT solved by presenting photo id. One solution that does solve it is to set up a nation-wide registry of where people live, with the legal requirement that if you move you inform the authorities. That's what some of these countries do, as part of their national ID system. This also updates your voting location.
And those are reasons why the US system isn't easily comparable to an actual national ID system, as well as helping highlight how the emphasis on in-person impersonation voter fraud over other forms of voter fraud is artificial.
(As a reminder, four people from The Villages, Sumpter Counter, FL have been arrested for suspicion of casting multiple ballots in the 2020 selection - https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/resident-of-the-village... - so it's probably more common than in-person impersonation. ... but I'm having a tough time tracking down those numbers!)
In any case, these sorts of voter fraud are paltry compared to wholesale gerrymandering practices.
what do you do if you lost your wallet the day before voting day and have no other accepted form of id?
What if your car broke down on the way to the polling place, and by the time you got alternate transportation they were closed? What if you send in your mail-in ballot but it gets lost in the mail? What if you suddenly end up hospitalized on voting day?
from what I read, lots of people cheat the vaccine card system
Lots of people get caught cheating the vaccine card system. When you have stricter security measures, you catch more of the people who break the rules.
What if your car broke down on the way to the polling place, and by the time you got alternate transportation they were closed?
You do realize that's one of the reasons why the two major political parties set up call lines where you can get a ride to the polling station, right?
Because that scenario happens.
Doesn't happen to me - my polling station is within walking distance.
Lots of people get caught
Where is the evidence that the existing non-state-issued-photo-id system is insufficiently strict?
How much stricter does the system need to be? Should we also check blood types? Should we also have genetic testing?
As I've pointed out, double voting appears more common than the types of fraud that can be detected with an id check.
Why aren't people pushing for a nation-wide registry of where each person lives, with a legal obligation to keep it up to date, would reduce more fraud?
1) Registering fake people doesn't affect the vote
Someone can be registered to vote in multiple precincts. This is pretty common, as when someone moves between two states and doesn't notify the old state that they are no longer a resident for voting purposes.
This is not illegal. While voting some place where you are not legally allowed to vote is illegal.
2) "ID" is broader than "state-issued photo id"
When I registered to vote, I had to present proof that I was a resident. There was a list of options, like showing utility bill, which sufficed.
It's a lot of work to set up a fake rental agreement, fake power bill, fake whatever, and show up in-person to register. How much more does a fake id cost?
Remember, the fake id can be reused. I could travel around to 50 precincts and register my pseudonym in each one.
3) The list of registered voters is public
This gives a way to check for false registrations. And people have done these checks, when investigating in-person impersonation voter fraud.
4) You know what is more effective at stopping this sort of fraud? A nation-wide registry of where people live, with the legal obligation to update it when you move.
This seems far more effective at reducing fraud than showing id. With additional benefits, like only needing to update your address once, for all government services.
Yet people focus on requiring people to show id, with its minuscule benefits and clear negatives.
Comments
It's a crime to vote in many countries without an id.
How is that relevant?
Is the argument that if country X does Y then Y isn't bad for the US?
Belgium requires people carry id with them all the time. Does that mean the US should be like Belgium and require everyone carry id?
Sweden requires either an id or someone with an id who can vouch for you, which is less strict than some of the US states.
Most of those countries have a national id system. Why wouldn't that be a prerequisite for the US?
It's relevant because considering what other people/places consider normal allows you to recontextualize and examine the frame you are in. The idea that IDs should be required for voting is only a hyper-politicized issue focused on race in the US, and noticing that lets you break your thinking outside that frame to some extent.
Ultimately I am against anything requiring IDs, but so long as I need to show my ID and vaccine card to get seated at a restaurant in SF, it doesn't seem outlandish to me at all that elections should require IDs.
Regarding national IDs, I'm not sure what you think this would look like but frankly that is the whole point of the REAL ID initiative which began in the wake of the Patriot Act reauthorization in 2005. Perhaps you have objections in light of the changes brought on by the REAL ID Modernization Act wherein the SSN requirements were significantly defanged, but IMO the point still remains.
The thing is, I'm aware about how voting is done outside of the US, at least to some extent.
That doesn't explain how readthenotes1's comment is relevant.
The amount of fraud in mail-in-voting is astoundingly low.
Mandatory voter id doesn't seem to provide any benefits except for calming an artificial fear that was hyped just to pass mandatory id laws.
I don't know why you say "focus on race" when the history shows that voter id requirements are there to elect Republicans, of which race is one correlated factor.
Why can a gun license be used as valid id, but a state college id cannot? College students tend to vote for Democrats. Gun owners tend to vote Republican.
Why do DMV offices (where you get ids) tend to close down in poor areas when there are cutbacks? Poor people tend to vote for Democrats.
Now, if we really do look to other countries, we can ask why the DMV is in charge of issuing id. In at least some of those other countries, it is the police which are in charge of ids.
So if we follow readthenotes1's suggestion see what other countries do, my point is that perhaps doing that correctly requires certain prerequisites that don't exist in the US.
I didn't realize that getting seated at a restaurant was a constitutional right.
That's quite the conspiracy theory. Here's a more reasonable explanation: the identity verification that you go through to get a college ID is way more lax than it is to get a gun license or basically any other government-issued ID.
Ahh, I see you've never had a transit id then. Here's the Transit Discount Photo ID Application for Roseville, CA - https://roseville.ca.us/government/departments/public_works/... . Only need a city utilities statement for that one.
That gotcha answer aside ... since the existing amount of in-person voting fraud is something like a few dozen cases per decade - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_impersonation_(United_St... - what justifies the need for higher strictness than a college id? Or even a city transit id?
Or, you know, no id it all.
The number of cases we've caught might be low, but when your safeguards are so lax that it's easy to get away with fraud without a trace, that doesn't mean much.
There is no evidence that the safeguards are lax. Despite a LOT of time, work, and money spent trying to demonstrate it over the last 10-20 years.
After the 2020 election people searched high and low to dreg up examples, finding only a paltry few.
If it's so lax, how would you go about doing it?
There's places in the US where you need to bring an ID and your vaccine card everywhere. If we're not willing to require ID to vote, then we should definitely ban that.
Why aren't you counting any of passport books, passport cards, or REAL ID-compliant IDs (which are finally available nationwide) as national IDs?
There's a few dozen cases of in-person impersonation voter fraud PER DECADE.
Showing id to vote therefore won't improve things in any meaningful way. While the negatives are easy -- what do you do if you lost your wallet the day before voting day and have no other accepted form of id?
If there are no benefits, why have it at all?
By comparison, from what I read, lots of people cheat the vaccine card system, so an id that helps verify that the vaccine card is indeed for the person presenting the card. The benefits are supposed to be the reduction of the infection rate, the ability to have an alternative to having business shut down either by order, or because of consumer reluctance.
Maybe you disagree with the conclusion of that cost-benefit analysis, but it's far more substantial than the benefits of having voter id.
Because it's a de facto, ad hoc, and incomplete system that isn't comparable to at least some of those countries.
In some of those countries which require voter id, you can get a valid id from your local police station, or from your bank, or the tax office. While the US ones seems to be centered around a much smaller number of DMV offices.
In Belgium, everyone is supposed to have an id. In the US, something like 9% of the population doesn't have an id which would be acceptable for voting. (Eg, don't drive because of age, illness, poverty, or live in a place with good mass transit.)
As a reminder, double voting (voting in more than one district) is also a form of voter fraud. Though, oddly, it isn't always illegal! - https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/double... . Even when illegal, it is NOT solved by presenting photo id. One solution that does solve it is to set up a nation-wide registry of where people live, with the legal requirement that if you move you inform the authorities. That's what some of these countries do, as part of their national ID system. This also updates your voting location.
And those are reasons why the US system isn't easily comparable to an actual national ID system, as well as helping highlight how the emphasis on in-person impersonation voter fraud over other forms of voter fraud is artificial.
(As a reminder, four people from The Villages, Sumpter Counter, FL have been arrested for suspicion of casting multiple ballots in the 2020 selection - https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/resident-of-the-village... - so it's probably more common than in-person impersonation. ... but I'm having a tough time tracking down those numbers!)
In any case, these sorts of voter fraud are paltry compared to wholesale gerrymandering practices.
What if your car broke down on the way to the polling place, and by the time you got alternate transportation they were closed? What if you send in your mail-in ballot but it gets lost in the mail? What if you suddenly end up hospitalized on voting day?
Lots of people get caught cheating the vaccine card system. When you have stricter security measures, you catch more of the people who break the rules.
You do realize that's one of the reasons why the two major political parties set up call lines where you can get a ride to the polling station, right?
Because that scenario happens.
Doesn't happen to me - my polling station is within walking distance.
Where is the evidence that the existing non-state-issued-photo-id system is insufficiently strict?
How much stricter does the system need to be? Should we also check blood types? Should we also have genetic testing?
As I've pointed out, double voting appears more common than the types of fraud that can be detected with an id check.
Why aren't people pushing for a nation-wide registry of where each person lives, with a legal obligation to keep it up to date, would reduce more fraud?
That's what some other countries do.
What stops inventing fake voters to register, if not ID?
1) Registering fake people doesn't affect the vote
Someone can be registered to vote in multiple precincts. This is pretty common, as when someone moves between two states and doesn't notify the old state that they are no longer a resident for voting purposes.
This is not illegal. While voting some place where you are not legally allowed to vote is illegal.
2) "ID" is broader than "state-issued photo id"
When I registered to vote, I had to present proof that I was a resident. There was a list of options, like showing utility bill, which sufficed.
It's a lot of work to set up a fake rental agreement, fake power bill, fake whatever, and show up in-person to register. How much more does a fake id cost?
Remember, the fake id can be reused. I could travel around to 50 precincts and register my pseudonym in each one.
3) The list of registered voters is public
This gives a way to check for false registrations. And people have done these checks, when investigating in-person impersonation voter fraud.
4) You know what is more effective at stopping this sort of fraud? A nation-wide registry of where people live, with the legal obligation to update it when you move.
This seems far more effective at reducing fraud than showing id. With additional benefits, like only needing to update your address once, for all government services.
Yet people focus on requiring people to show id, with its minuscule benefits and clear negatives.
Why is that?