I thought this is well known. Especially in 2022. If we could sum it up in two words it would be User Experience.
Games - Even though there are some games that could be done with HTML / JS and there are games as such within app store. Vast majority require Native access for performance and battery.
Icons on HomeScreen. This is partially a platform limitation where you cant add the "Web Site" to Home Screen with "one click". A click on Homescreen to access information is million times easier to typing in a Website address.
Performance - The best HTML / JS apps may be just above the median of Native Apps in terms of performance. And vast majority of HTML / Web Apps performs poorly even on the fastest SoC A15.
Technology - You cant do instant messaging and other things as native app.
App Store provide easy access, distribution and trust to consumers.
Basically the experience of Native Apps is so much better than Web alternative. That doesn't mean I support native app or denounce Web App. I consider the point above as objective truth.
Germane to this, though, are which limitations are real, and which are artificially imposed.
Icons are an artificial limitation. Ditto for the app store (access and distribution via web are much easier than an app store, and curation could fulfill the trust aspect).
Technology-wise, there's no technical limitation preventing a web app from sending instant messages. We are, however, hampered by the adoption of browser support for things like cameras, gamepads, etc, but even there, much of that is policy, and not due to how long it takes to integrate with browsers.
Games/performance are the one thing that's true here, though it's possible WASM will upend that, too.
The app stores taking sizable cuts of the profits provide a strong incentive to prioritize apps over web, and drag their heels on supporting web apps.
I dont disagree. From a technology POV, there are zero reason why anything cant be done on WASM in the future [1], and how WebGPU with extension could be used as a replacement for Metal or Vulkan. Or working on DOM access with WASM ( or is that a thing already? ). Others such as Web App and Web API could be developed. But none of these works at this point in time. And not in the near future. Especially when, as you said the platform vendors do not have any incentive to do so.
The single click Home Screen is definitely a platform limitation and not a technology limitation.
There are dozens if not hundreds of Real world examples where companies moves to Web Based technology ( example Ikea ) and move back to Native App simply because the experience, and user retention rate is far higher in Apps. React Native is bridging the gap but many would argue that is Native as well, not Web.
I am not in support of everything App Store. I think there needs to be a balance of things. I think there needs to be an option for user to install ( or sideload, which is a word I hate ). What we dont have an answer is how should Apple monetise what ever they think is needed for their R&D cost that is also acceptable to user and developer.
I personally can not judge many things, like the performance, that's why I am asking in so (too) much detail for anything.
Do you have a link to the IKEA case by the hand, maybe? Was it more an 'we want everything to move all the time, so phones are too slow' problem, probably including 'we load ways too much unnecessary stuff' on their web page, or what drove them moving back?
* Games: some might be done with better battery life, but most games are simple ones, where this should not really hold. Besides that: If it's so horrible in browsers, the manufacturers should hurry to keep up, as these manufacturers are often the same as the mobile platform providers
* Icons: maybe it's two clicks to add a web page to the home screen, or to click on a bookmark in the browser. But it should be still not more difficult for users to add the bookmark icon to home screen than to install an app, which requires not less 'clicks'
* Performance: most apps are quite simple, and should not need the native boost. By the way: How big would it be really for most apps?
* Technology: if you "cant" do messaging, why does it work? ;-) And of course as web page it already works for ages, also encrypted, if you want. Besides that, email is still superior, and not more complicated, than instant messaging.
* App Store: restricts you in many ways, in what you can install, instead of having a freely visible web page
So already with the restrictions of the App Stores, how can the User Experience for (most) apps be better than with simply visiting a web site?
Do you really consider them being too dumb to add an icon to their home screen instead of installing an app?
It sounds like you have an existing preconceived notion and anyone giving you any answers isn’t going to make you say “oh you’re right, I hadn’t thought of that”.
The parent gave you valid, legitimate reasons why people do it, and you’re saying “yeah I’m ignoring all that because -technically- you can do the same things on the web”.
The user experience is undeniably better in most native apps, that’s just reality. Nobody’s saying it’s impossible to match it, but to make a web app that comes close to a native app in terms of UX takes a lot of work. Most web apps are nowhere near the level of polish or performance that comes for free with an OS’s UI tooling.
Think about it: If what you’re saying was true, then you’d see services with web apps that are of equal or better polish than their native apps (since they usually maintain both, like how eBay/Twitter/Reddit has their web app and the native app), and that just basically doesn’t happen.
It sounds like you have an existing preconceived notion and anyone giving you any answers isn’t going to make you say “oh you’re right, I hadn’t thought of that”.
I am still waiting for that effect, respectively only asking further to the parts not fulfilling that, as I am basically asking why we would need (most) apps, if web provides (most) of the stuff in a much more simple way, regarded from developer's side – and a not more complicated way, from user's view.
Also I often struggle with the way big companies are developing their sites, already for the good old web browsers – e.g. Twitter already regularly collapses trying to detect if I am human – so don't take it personally, if I do not take them as measurement, how things should be done. Just because you are big, does not mean you do it right.
They can't even get it really managed to develop their sites so that they work normally on a 10 year old box, and are more part of the unnerving keep-the-sites-content-moving all the time, then part of solid web development, IMHO.
Twitter is simple, but Twitter App is still better than Twitter on Web. My answer is find me a decent app made with Web technology. The only one that is good enough is VSCode. And that is with lots of native component to speed things up.
Does web apps works? Yes, are they objectively better than Native Apps, best vs best? No.
I think you need to look at how consumer use computing, and not semi pros, nerds uses it. There are people who still have difficulties using mouse as pointing devices.
By the way: It's 2021, and especially then people should be able to use web pages, and to place an icon on their HomeScreen, and should not fall for the hype of collecting apps, with (nearly) no sense at all ;-)
Comments
I thought this is well known. Especially in 2022. If we could sum it up in two words it would be User Experience.
Games - Even though there are some games that could be done with HTML / JS and there are games as such within app store. Vast majority require Native access for performance and battery.
Icons on HomeScreen. This is partially a platform limitation where you cant add the "Web Site" to Home Screen with "one click". A click on Homescreen to access information is million times easier to typing in a Website address.
Performance - The best HTML / JS apps may be just above the median of Native Apps in terms of performance. And vast majority of HTML / Web Apps performs poorly even on the fastest SoC A15.
Technology - You cant do instant messaging and other things as native app.
App Store provide easy access, distribution and trust to consumers.
Basically the experience of Native Apps is so much better than Web alternative. That doesn't mean I support native app or denounce Web App. I consider the point above as objective truth.
Germane to this, though, are which limitations are real, and which are artificially imposed.
Icons are an artificial limitation. Ditto for the app store (access and distribution via web are much easier than an app store, and curation could fulfill the trust aspect).
Technology-wise, there's no technical limitation preventing a web app from sending instant messages. We are, however, hampered by the adoption of browser support for things like cameras, gamepads, etc, but even there, much of that is policy, and not due to how long it takes to integrate with browsers.
Games/performance are the one thing that's true here, though it's possible WASM will upend that, too.
The app stores taking sizable cuts of the profits provide a strong incentive to prioritize apps over web, and drag their heels on supporting web apps.
I dont disagree. From a technology POV, there are zero reason why anything cant be done on WASM in the future [1], and how WebGPU with extension could be used as a replacement for Metal or Vulkan. Or working on DOM access with WASM ( or is that a thing already? ). Others such as Web App and Web API could be developed. But none of these works at this point in time. And not in the near future. Especially when, as you said the platform vendors do not have any incentive to do so.
The single click Home Screen is definitely a platform limitation and not a technology limitation.
There are dozens if not hundreds of Real world examples where companies moves to Web Based technology ( example Ikea ) and move back to Native App simply because the experience, and user retention rate is far higher in Apps. React Native is bridging the gap but many would argue that is Native as well, not Web.
I am not in support of everything App Store. I think there needs to be a balance of things. I think there needs to be an option for user to install ( or sideload, which is a word I hate ). What we dont have an answer is how should Apple monetise what ever they think is needed for their R&D cost that is also acceptable to user and developer.
[1] https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...
I personally can not judge many things, like the performance, that's why I am asking in so (too) much detail for anything. Do you have a link to the IKEA case by the hand, maybe? Was it more an 'we want everything to move all the time, so phones are too slow' problem, probably including 'we load ways too much unnecessary stuff' on their web page, or what drove them moving back?
Four words: Can't see that.
* Games: some might be done with better battery life, but most games are simple ones, where this should not really hold. Besides that: If it's so horrible in browsers, the manufacturers should hurry to keep up, as these manufacturers are often the same as the mobile platform providers
* Icons: maybe it's two clicks to add a web page to the home screen, or to click on a bookmark in the browser. But it should be still not more difficult for users to add the bookmark icon to home screen than to install an app, which requires not less 'clicks'
* Performance: most apps are quite simple, and should not need the native boost. By the way: How big would it be really for most apps?
* Technology: if you "cant" do messaging, why does it work? ;-) And of course as web page it already works for ages, also encrypted, if you want. Besides that, email is still superior, and not more complicated, than instant messaging.
* App Store: restricts you in many ways, in what you can install, instead of having a freely visible web page
So already with the restrictions of the App Stores, how can the User Experience for (most) apps be better than with simply visiting a web site? Do you really consider them being too dumb to add an icon to their home screen instead of installing an app?
It sounds like you have an existing preconceived notion and anyone giving you any answers isn’t going to make you say “oh you’re right, I hadn’t thought of that”.
The parent gave you valid, legitimate reasons why people do it, and you’re saying “yeah I’m ignoring all that because -technically- you can do the same things on the web”.
The user experience is undeniably better in most native apps, that’s just reality. Nobody’s saying it’s impossible to match it, but to make a web app that comes close to a native app in terms of UX takes a lot of work. Most web apps are nowhere near the level of polish or performance that comes for free with an OS’s UI tooling.
Think about it: If what you’re saying was true, then you’d see services with web apps that are of equal or better polish than their native apps (since they usually maintain both, like how eBay/Twitter/Reddit has their web app and the native app), and that just basically doesn’t happen.
I am still waiting for that effect, respectively only asking further to the parts not fulfilling that, as I am basically asking why we would need (most) apps, if web provides (most) of the stuff in a much more simple way, regarded from developer's side – and a not more complicated way, from user's view.
Also I often struggle with the way big companies are developing their sites, already for the good old web browsers – e.g. Twitter already regularly collapses trying to detect if I am human – so don't take it personally, if I do not take them as measurement, how things should be done. Just because you are big, does not mean you do it right. They can't even get it really managed to develop their sites so that they work normally on a 10 year old box, and are more part of the unnerving keep-the-sites-content-moving all the time, then part of solid web development, IMHO.
PUBG? Fornite? Genshin?
Twitter is simple, but Twitter App is still better than Twitter on Web. My answer is find me a decent app made with Web technology. The only one that is good enough is VSCode. And that is with lots of native component to speed things up.
Does web apps works? Yes, are they objectively better than Native Apps, best vs best? No.
I think you need to look at how consumer use computing, and not semi pros, nerds uses it. There are people who still have difficulties using mouse as pointing devices.
* "Most games" does not imply 'all games'
* That there also are bad web pages, would be no reason to make apps?
* there are still people struggling using a touch screen
By the way: It's 2021, and especially then people should be able to use web pages, and to place an icon on their HomeScreen, and should not fall for the hype of collecting apps, with (nearly) no sense at all ;-)