>>Oh of course, a student waiting a few seconds to logon to a server is clearly wasting too much of their time,
No, but setting up several hundred new freshman every year is a pain in the ass. One that took my school atleast a week to finish up when they did it by a (poorly written, im sure) batch script. Besides, one of the most important points of computers is automation. If adding a new system removes even 15 seconds from every new user, that can add up rather quickly in a large school.
>>and IT departments are just going to _love_ the loss of control over the devices they currently have.
What? What control do they loose are you referring to?
>Because the web apps that a netbook uses, are mythical beasts that have no licensing or maintenance requirements, and store data down gumdrop lane, because they're powered by the good thoughts of Google users, not physical servers?
have you been to a high school in the last ~5 years? Mine probably had ~90% uptime. Meaning it was down/unavailable for use 10% of the time. Multiple hours, almost every night. Godawful. Google is unarguably one of the most reliable web services there is, so, while the author was being a bit hyperbolic, it is almost certainly a stepup from any non-private middle/high school I've ever seen.
No, but setting up several hundred new freshman every year is a pain in the ass. One that took my school atleast a week to finish up when they did it by a (poorly written, im sure) batch script. Besides, one of the most important points of computers is automation.
I worked in a department that had a statewide eDirectory (45+ campuses spread across across hundreds of KMs), with students created every night. At the beginning of semesters, it would be creating thousands of new accounts every night. It had a few hiccups, sure, but it was automated. How do you think the Google Apps accounts are going to be setup? Google isn't some magical beast that telepathically knows all the students in a school.
Just because the IT at the school you were at was run by idiots doesn't mean they all are.
* What? What control do they loose are you referring to? *
When you manage services locally - i.e. desktop/laptops with directory services, file&print, email handled internally, YOU (that is, IT) decides what users can do. They can stop users from installing random Apps, or visitng porn/non-educational sites, and do things like prevent students from printing war and peace fifty times just for giggles.
* have you been to a high school in the last ~5 years? Mine probably had ~90% uptime. *
again, one bad school doesn't mean the rest are the same. Multiple hours of downtime per night is not the norm - we didn't even have that kind of downtime when we migrated every single networked device in the state into a new Directory Services tree. Sounds like your school needs new IT staff, not an external provider. Incompetent staff will f*ck up anything they're given.
>>How do you think the Google Apps accounts are going to be setup? Google isn't some magical beast that telepathically knows all the students in a school.
Haha, I know they are not. I am saying that often school IT departments are underfunded and understaffed and would be relieved to have people that are more capable handeling it for them. Our It head was also a gym teacher.
>>When you manage services locally - i.e. desktop/laptops with directory services, file&print, email handled internally, YOU (that is, IT) decides what users can do. They can stop users from installing random Apps, or visitng porn/non-educational sites, and do things like prevent students from printing war and peace fifty times just for giggles.
Well apps are a nonissue since it is chromeos, and only has one app. I thought I had heard of filtering options for enterprise/education customers but I can't find the article saying so. Acting on the assumption that it would be filterable, are there any other objections
>>Sounds like your school needs new IT staff, not an external provider. Incompetent staff will f*ck up anything they're given.
Completely agreed, as I said the head was also the gym teacher. I am sure everyone would love to have a better system in place, but it is not economically viable on he budget given. The relative low entry cost and high uptime of google services would certainly be an option though. But how is new it staff !== external provider?
* would be relieved to have people that are more capable handeling it for them*
Google isn't going to send staff out to your school to create/manage the accounts etc. Someone will still need to do that.
* I thought I had heard of filtering options for enterprise/education customers but I can't find the article saying so. Acting on the assumption that it would be filterable, are there any other objections*
For filtering to be of any use, you also need to be able to log who tried to access what - because a lot of the filtering process is checking access logs for undesired sites.
So lets say you can use an authenticated proxy to log that - you then need to have an authentication system for the proxy server. So now you have a list of students, staff, etc in your local LDAP (i.e. AD/eDirectory/etc) and a mirrored list in Google Apps so they can use that. But then you have to explain to the users that the passwords aren't in sync, and that if they want to change their proxy password you have to provide some kind of web interface for them, because they aren't authenticating the device via Directory Services, which provides a password-change/password expired/etc mechanism for desktop OS'.
* But how is new it staff !== external provider*
If you hire IT staff and then tell them they are there to "support" Google Apps/Gmail, if they are any good they will politely tell you to stick your job. If they want to stay, you don't really want them.
>>Google isn't going to send staff out to your school to create/manage the accounts etc. Someone will still need to do that.
They have api's and forms to easily create this. Its must cheaper than rewriting your own system.
>>So lets say you can use an authenticated proxy to log that - you then need to have an authentication system for the proxy server. So now you have a list of students, staff, etc in your local LDAP (i.e. AD/eDirectory/etc) and a mirrored list in Google Apps so they can use that. But then you have to explain to the users that the passwords aren't in sync, and that if they want to change their proxy password you have to provide some kind of web interface for them, because they aren't authenticating the device via Directory Services, which provides a password-change/password expired/etc mechanism for desktop OS'.
I know I asked you to extrapolate on an assumption, but I can't image a chromeos implementation requiring an LDAP server for this sort of work. Simply hardcoding a list of blocked sites and IPs into any non-admins account would be fairly trivial to implement. But yes I agree, if you did this by means of a complicated solution it would be complicated.
>>If you hire IT staff and then tell them they are there to "support" Google Apps/Gmail, if they are any good they will politely tell you to stick your job. If they want to stay, you don't really want them.
The point is the complete reduction/need for a full time IT person. Google also offers 24/7 phone support for all education and corporate subscribers. A "computer guy" and these services would work fine for a majority of people.
Ultimately, is this a silver bullet for all schools? No. But Silver bullets don't exist. This is something that takes a lot of load and setup/maintenance from the schools. And in the end I fail to see how this could be anything but a positive thing.
Comments
>>Oh of course, a student waiting a few seconds to logon to a server is clearly wasting too much of their time,
No, but setting up several hundred new freshman every year is a pain in the ass. One that took my school atleast a week to finish up when they did it by a (poorly written, im sure) batch script. Besides, one of the most important points of computers is automation. If adding a new system removes even 15 seconds from every new user, that can add up rather quickly in a large school.
>>and IT departments are just going to _love_ the loss of control over the devices they currently have.
What? What control do they loose are you referring to?
>Because the web apps that a netbook uses, are mythical beasts that have no licensing or maintenance requirements, and store data down gumdrop lane, because they're powered by the good thoughts of Google users, not physical servers?
have you been to a high school in the last ~5 years? Mine probably had ~90% uptime. Meaning it was down/unavailable for use 10% of the time. Multiple hours, almost every night. Godawful. Google is unarguably one of the most reliable web services there is, so, while the author was being a bit hyperbolic, it is almost certainly a stepup from any non-private middle/high school I've ever seen.
Seriously. its a good deal.
No, but setting up several hundred new freshman every year is a pain in the ass. One that took my school atleast a week to finish up when they did it by a (poorly written, im sure) batch script. Besides, one of the most important points of computers is automation.
I worked in a department that had a statewide eDirectory (45+ campuses spread across across hundreds of KMs), with students created every night. At the beginning of semesters, it would be creating thousands of new accounts every night. It had a few hiccups, sure, but it was automated. How do you think the Google Apps accounts are going to be setup? Google isn't some magical beast that telepathically knows all the students in a school.
Just because the IT at the school you were at was run by idiots doesn't mean they all are.
* What? What control do they loose are you referring to? *
When you manage services locally - i.e. desktop/laptops with directory services, file&print, email handled internally, YOU (that is, IT) decides what users can do. They can stop users from installing random Apps, or visitng porn/non-educational sites, and do things like prevent students from printing war and peace fifty times just for giggles.
* have you been to a high school in the last ~5 years? Mine probably had ~90% uptime. * again, one bad school doesn't mean the rest are the same. Multiple hours of downtime per night is not the norm - we didn't even have that kind of downtime when we migrated every single networked device in the state into a new Directory Services tree. Sounds like your school needs new IT staff, not an external provider. Incompetent staff will f*ck up anything they're given.
>>How do you think the Google Apps accounts are going to be setup? Google isn't some magical beast that telepathically knows all the students in a school.
Haha, I know they are not. I am saying that often school IT departments are underfunded and understaffed and would be relieved to have people that are more capable handeling it for them. Our It head was also a gym teacher.
>>When you manage services locally - i.e. desktop/laptops with directory services, file&print, email handled internally, YOU (that is, IT) decides what users can do. They can stop users from installing random Apps, or visitng porn/non-educational sites, and do things like prevent students from printing war and peace fifty times just for giggles.
Well apps are a nonissue since it is chromeos, and only has one app. I thought I had heard of filtering options for enterprise/education customers but I can't find the article saying so. Acting on the assumption that it would be filterable, are there any other objections
>>Sounds like your school needs new IT staff, not an external provider. Incompetent staff will f*ck up anything they're given.
Completely agreed, as I said the head was also the gym teacher. I am sure everyone would love to have a better system in place, but it is not economically viable on he budget given. The relative low entry cost and high uptime of google services would certainly be an option though. But how is new it staff !== external provider?
* would be relieved to have people that are more capable handeling it for them*
Google isn't going to send staff out to your school to create/manage the accounts etc. Someone will still need to do that.
* I thought I had heard of filtering options for enterprise/education customers but I can't find the article saying so. Acting on the assumption that it would be filterable, are there any other objections* For filtering to be of any use, you also need to be able to log who tried to access what - because a lot of the filtering process is checking access logs for undesired sites.
So lets say you can use an authenticated proxy to log that - you then need to have an authentication system for the proxy server. So now you have a list of students, staff, etc in your local LDAP (i.e. AD/eDirectory/etc) and a mirrored list in Google Apps so they can use that. But then you have to explain to the users that the passwords aren't in sync, and that if they want to change their proxy password you have to provide some kind of web interface for them, because they aren't authenticating the device via Directory Services, which provides a password-change/password expired/etc mechanism for desktop OS'.
* But how is new it staff !== external provider*
If you hire IT staff and then tell them they are there to "support" Google Apps/Gmail, if they are any good they will politely tell you to stick your job. If they want to stay, you don't really want them.
>>Google isn't going to send staff out to your school to create/manage the accounts etc. Someone will still need to do that.
They have api's and forms to easily create this. Its must cheaper than rewriting your own system.
>>So lets say you can use an authenticated proxy to log that - you then need to have an authentication system for the proxy server. So now you have a list of students, staff, etc in your local LDAP (i.e. AD/eDirectory/etc) and a mirrored list in Google Apps so they can use that. But then you have to explain to the users that the passwords aren't in sync, and that if they want to change their proxy password you have to provide some kind of web interface for them, because they aren't authenticating the device via Directory Services, which provides a password-change/password expired/etc mechanism for desktop OS'.
I know I asked you to extrapolate on an assumption, but I can't image a chromeos implementation requiring an LDAP server for this sort of work. Simply hardcoding a list of blocked sites and IPs into any non-admins account would be fairly trivial to implement. But yes I agree, if you did this by means of a complicated solution it would be complicated.
>>If you hire IT staff and then tell them they are there to "support" Google Apps/Gmail, if they are any good they will politely tell you to stick your job. If they want to stay, you don't really want them.
The point is the complete reduction/need for a full time IT person. Google also offers 24/7 phone support for all education and corporate subscribers. A "computer guy" and these services would work fine for a majority of people.
Ultimately, is this a silver bullet for all schools? No. But Silver bullets don't exist. This is something that takes a lot of load and setup/maintenance from the schools. And in the end I fail to see how this could be anything but a positive thing.