Excellent photos, especially this one [1] of what appears to be posters against granting women the right to vote in the Swiss canton of Geneva. I had known that Switzerland had been pretty late in accepting women to vote, but seeing their "reasonings" from back in that time written down so clearly put things in a new perspective (if it matters I'm not Swiss, but I generally like Switzerland and I considered at some point the possibility of moving there for good).
My canton wouldn't follow for about another decade, but the flip side of slow adoption is that implementation hasn't been subject to foot-dragging[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23885838
I am in my early twenties and from Switzerland. My father was born four years after this picture was taken, can't wrap my head around the fact that my country was so incredibly sexist back then. The arguments are laughably bad.
I wondered which parties voted against it, as expected the only one was SVP(BGB back then). Who would have thought...
EDIT: The last canton to allow woman to vote was Appenzell Innerrhoden in 1990.
I have a curious question, hope you can shed some light.
I am an American. I grew up in a highly educated household that valued education, being kind to each other and rejecting nationalism. We don't hold up our flag and somehow feel uncomfortable with patriotism. Our family constantly argues about the US military and its might, its wrong doings and its good deeds.
With that said, I've interacted with several Swiss friends and found a repeating pattern of opinions (which we laugh off as jokes) - of how proud Americans are about their country. For me and my social circle in a mid-large city in US, it is completely the opposite. Even during college, none of my fellow friends had any shred of pride in being an American (I studied Engineering). It was mostly looking up to Switzerland (and EU, esp. Scandanavia) as utopian paradise.
Could you please help provide some light on the following questions that I would feel very uncomfortable asking otherwise:
- Do Swiss people also feel shame of being patriotic?
- As an outsider, we see Swiss flags advertised on pretty much every Swiss company, product and service. But, I realize that it may be a mirage and not the actual on-the-grounds situation in Switzerland. Do you see the Swiss pride internally as well or it is just a commercial brandname/marketing ploy since Swiss brand is so strong.
- What, if any, are the views about anti-patriotism that is exemplified by Germans. Hardly see German flags and patriotism there seems to be muted if not outright rejected. Is there any sort of friction?
Do Swiss people also feel shame of being patriotic?
As usual, it depends. Myself? Yes. Patriotism is uncomfortable for me. I live in an awesome country and am glad to live here. But waving flags, being proud of old traditions and partaking in them is not really what I like. But I'm a city kid, my friends who live in more rural places are way more patriotic than me. It could be the usual pattern of people in cities being more left-leaning, and left-leaning somehow not being that patriotic. That's just my impression, maybe that's way off.
As an outsider, we see Swiss flags advertised on pretty much every Swiss company, product and service. [...]
Yes, that's actually where I get kinda patriotic. It feels flattering that the whole world likes our watches, chocolates and just swiss products in general. So a "Made in Switzerland" label and a little, square swiss flag gives the impression and guarantee that a product is of good quality. Not everything is shiny though - A "friend" of mine sells T-Shirts which are "Made in Switzerland". They are produced and printed in Czechia, but because he applies his labels and packaging in Switzerland, he's able to market and sell them as a swiss product. Pretty messed up if you ask me, lol.
What, if any, are the views about anti-patriotism that is exemplified by Germans. Hardly see German flags and patriotism there seems to be muted if not outright rejected. Is there any sort of friction?
Germany absolutely tries to mute patriotism, and as far I know that is still because of a certain dude called Hitler and his friends. The Nazis were of course ultra-patriotic and as far fetched as this may sound - Germanys history is quite awkward in that regard.
My parents told me that it was strange to see Germany wave their flags and being proud of their country during the Soccer World Cup of 2006. It wasn't strange for my parents because it made them feel uneasy, but because it was new for germans to show patriotism again. But as I said, that wasn't bad at all, and I or anyone I know doesn't hold any grudge against them. Due to us being able to speak their language, they feel like our big, ex-junkie brother who's got his shit together compared to a couple of centuries ago.
The AfD being as present as they are worry me, though.
As a disclaimer, take what I say with a grain of salt :) Of course I am not the voice of Switzerland, and my answers were probably influenced a bit by my own ethics and ideologies. But feel free to ask any questions, they weren't uncomfortable at all, in the contrary.
The arguments are mind-bogglingly outdated now. -- "Men and women are equal, but they have different missions". "Don't bog our women down in party fights, they have more noble tasks to complete." -- They really were different times, and only 60 years ago.
Another thought on 60 years ago being different times:
In the biography of a 1st world politician (national level during the 1970s), he recollects that he lost his first race, in the 1960s. Only to win it a day or two later, because someone noticed that a bunch of people who had voted for his opponent not only did so in alphabetical order, but were also dead.
So he did in fact proceed to the legislature, only to find the first topic of debate for that session was about how long someone had to be dead before they couldn't vote anymore.
I hope that in 2020 the metabolically challenged no longer vote, at least not in alphabetical order.
A final(?) thought on 60 years ago: in 1960, the people who were clinging to power were born and were young before WWI, when the world was a very different place: europe was full of monarchical empires, and society reflected it.
In 2020, our ExComm (officially: "federal council") are 48-70 years old, so the eldest (no points for guessing party alignment!) unsurprisingly reflects mores from the 1950s and early 1960s.
As far as I have been able to figure in 10 minutes, even the Nazis, who otherwise rolled back many women's rights, were unwilling to disenfranchise (german women had been enfranchised since 1918).
Not that having the vote practically mattered much: 1933 was irregular, and post-1933 votes were formalities.
Women in Switzerland gained the right to vote in federal elections in 1971. The photos were taken in Switzerland. The posters were made during the fight for that.
A previous referendum on that was held in 1959 and was rejected by 67% of Switzerland's men.
Despite (or perhaps because of?) the stridency below, "No" lost.
left:
(french left, german right):
in 1959 by 650'000 votes
the swiss people said
NO
to women's suffrage
(then)
Geneva
must remain united with switzerland, vote
NO
united at the ballot box!
vote
NO
Ticinesi of Geneva
all should vote
NO
middle:
NO, NO, NO, etc.
Don't mix up our women in political strife
They have more noble tasks to accomplish
right:
Citizens! (NB: male only)
Beware of words, regard the facts!
- Men and women are equal in the civil realm but they have different spheres.
- Politics already divides men, don't mix women up in it.
- Leave the woman out of politics, that's how she'll be useful to the country and secure her interests.
- A woman does better to hear her voice in her own home than in a political party.
- Of course men will vote for social laws that protect women.
Unite, don't divide
vote NO
That poster on the right is amazing, it mirrors our current political situation in many ways.
point 1: Just stating the current status quo.
point 2: Good old fashioned sexism. Women are too weak, etc...
point 3: Even stronger sexism. Telling them straight up to go back to the kitchen and make some babies.
point 4: Saying that they should proxy vote through their husbands I think? It's kind of a strange point that I think might be better understood through the lens of sexism.
point 5: What absolute bullshit. Just tell the big lie I guess. See also: modern day abortion panels that consist entirely of old white guys.
I also appreciate how the final slogan is "vote to keep half of the population separated from politics, you know 'unite'".
Yeah, we still have people who think this way, but as opposed to 1959 (compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24659208 ) when they had a majority of the electorate, now they're only reflected by 1 of the 4 parties in government (out of 12 who've sent representatives to our legislature).
Comments
Excellent photos, especially this one [1] of what appears to be posters against granting women the right to vote in the Swiss canton of Geneva. I had known that Switzerland had been pretty late in accepting women to vote, but seeing their "reasonings" from back in that time written down so clearly put things in a new perspective (if it matters I'm not Swiss, but I generally like Switzerland and I considered at some point the possibility of moving there for good).
[1] https://www.jacksharp.co.uk/12603572-88977-photo-4
"Oui" won at the urns in Geneva in 1960: http://institutions.ville-geneve.ch/fr/bge/actualites/actual...
My canton wouldn't follow for about another decade, but the flip side of slow adoption is that implementation hasn't been subject to foot-dragging[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23885838
US-based HN'ers may wish to compare also Article 8 of our constitution: https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/...
with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment#/media/...
[1] found the original soundtrack to that overdub: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc6NehFdQ5g (still haven't found a Trump/Azar duet, however)
That picture made me feel pretty bad...
I am in my early twenties and from Switzerland. My father was born four years after this picture was taken, can't wrap my head around the fact that my country was so incredibly sexist back then. The arguments are laughably bad.
I wondered which parties voted against it, as expected the only one was SVP(BGB back then). Who would have thought...
EDIT: The last canton to allow woman to vote was Appenzell Innerrhoden in 1990.
I have a curious question, hope you can shed some light.
I am an American. I grew up in a highly educated household that valued education, being kind to each other and rejecting nationalism. We don't hold up our flag and somehow feel uncomfortable with patriotism. Our family constantly argues about the US military and its might, its wrong doings and its good deeds.
With that said, I've interacted with several Swiss friends and found a repeating pattern of opinions (which we laugh off as jokes) - of how proud Americans are about their country. For me and my social circle in a mid-large city in US, it is completely the opposite. Even during college, none of my fellow friends had any shred of pride in being an American (I studied Engineering). It was mostly looking up to Switzerland (and EU, esp. Scandanavia) as utopian paradise.
Could you please help provide some light on the following questions that I would feel very uncomfortable asking otherwise:
- Do Swiss people also feel shame of being patriotic?
- As an outsider, we see Swiss flags advertised on pretty much every Swiss company, product and service. But, I realize that it may be a mirage and not the actual on-the-grounds situation in Switzerland. Do you see the Swiss pride internally as well or it is just a commercial brandname/marketing ploy since Swiss brand is so strong.
- What, if any, are the views about anti-patriotism that is exemplified by Germans. Hardly see German flags and patriotism there seems to be muted if not outright rejected. Is there any sort of friction?
As a disclaimer, take what I say with a grain of salt :) Of course I am not the voice of Switzerland, and my answers were probably influenced a bit by my own ethics and ideologies. But feel free to ask any questions, they weren't uncomfortable at all, in the contrary.
The arguments are mind-bogglingly outdated now. -- "Men and women are equal, but they have different missions". "Don't bog our women down in party fights, they have more noble tasks to complete." -- They really were different times, and only 60 years ago.
Another thought on 60 years ago being different times:
In the biography of a 1st world politician (national level during the 1970s), he recollects that he lost his first race, in the 1960s. Only to win it a day or two later, because someone noticed that a bunch of people who had voted for his opponent not only did so in alphabetical order, but were also dead.
So he did in fact proceed to the legislature, only to find the first topic of debate for that session was about how long someone had to be dead before they couldn't vote anymore.
I hope that in 2020 the metabolically challenged no longer vote, at least not in alphabetical order.
I hope that if they do vote, that they do it in alphabetical order, so that it's obvious.
Very good point!
A final(?) thought on 60 years ago: in 1960, the people who were clinging to power were born and were young before WWI, when the world was a very different place: europe was full of monarchical empires, and society reflected it.
In 2020, our ExComm (officially: "federal council") are 48-70 years old, so the eldest (no points for guessing party alignment!) unsurprisingly reflects mores from the 1950s and early 1960s.
about as outdated as the uniform: https://www.jacksharp.co.uk/12603583-88977-photo-5
Assuming the Securitas of the time didn't dress like that, this'd be more up to date: https://cdn.unitycms.io/image/ocroped/1200,1200,1000,1000,0,...
Massey-Harris is now Massey-Ferguson, but still makes tractors and manure spreaders. It's a single person job now: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Ma...
The steps across from the Alhambra are gone: https://www.google.com/maps/@46.2028417,6.1463583,3a,90y,180... but Chillon (like Lavaux?) hasn't changed much :-) https://www.google.com/maps/@46.412932,6.9292024,3a,75y,180h...
How do you mean outdated? It's still a very popular argument. And time have had nothing to do with it being hogwash.
You hear these sometimes, but not about female voting rights. Afaik, the "women shall have right to vote" side won hearts of general public.
As far as I have been able to figure in 10 minutes, even the Nazis, who otherwise rolled back many women's rights, were unwilling to disenfranchise (german women had been enfranchised since 1918).
Not that having the vote practically mattered much: 1933 was irregular, and post-1933 votes were formalities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_elec...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_German_parliamentary_elec...
Women in Switzerland gained the right to vote in federal elections in 1971. The photos were taken in Switzerland. The posters were made during the fight for that.
A previous referendum on that was held in 1959 and was rejected by 67% of Switzerland's men.
That’s fascinating. Could someone translate this to English for those of us that can’t read the language?
Despite (or perhaps because of?) the stridency below, "No" lost.
left:
middle: right:That poster on the right is amazing, it mirrors our current political situation in many ways.
point 1: Just stating the current status quo.
point 2: Good old fashioned sexism. Women are too weak, etc...
point 3: Even stronger sexism. Telling them straight up to go back to the kitchen and make some babies.
point 4: Saying that they should proxy vote through their husbands I think? It's kind of a strange point that I think might be better understood through the lens of sexism.
point 5: What absolute bullshit. Just tell the big lie I guess. See also: modern day abortion panels that consist entirely of old white guys.
I also appreciate how the final slogan is "vote to keep half of the population separated from politics, you know 'unite'".
Yeah, we still have people who think this way, but as opposed to 1959 (compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24659208 ) when they had a majority of the electorate, now they're only reflected by 1 of the 4 parties in government (out of 12 who've sent representatives to our legislature).
Multi-party democracy FTW.