The lines in law, where they exist, tend to be fuzzy, rather than fine.
Now with that said freedom of speech is a special law. And obviously one that cuts both ways. But a key reason why the law should largely exist untampered is that even if you say something I think is offensive, I can rely on a few things:
1) If it's absurd it will be discarded by most people.
2) If it's absurd those people it would convince, probably
already believe it.
3) With freedom of speech I can argue the point prior to irreversible damage.
Now there are some cases where freedom of speech don't apply and those are generally cases where the three points above don't apply. For example, the classic of yelling "Fire" in a crowded room. Someone else yelling, "there is no fire" is not likely to be heard and even if "Fire" is seemingly absurd, most people may not discard due to potential harm. Yada yada.
But outside of cases that violate the above, the law should stand. Otherwise the consequences, shutting down opposing speech, will almost certainly be worse.
I generally don't find creationism offensive. While I don't believe it, I'm not offended by it. And I think that's true for most people. It's certainly not the type of thing that ever comes up in free speech arguments. I can't think of any atheist I know (although I'm sure some exist) who want creationism banned in speech or writing.
Agreed. I'm a fairly strong minded atheist and I find creationism offensive. At the same time I would defend to the death the right for creationists to have free speech.
I could understand why one might find the teaching of creationism offensive, but what is offensive about other people holding wrong opinions? I'm sure we each think the other holds several; I'm not offended by the error I perceive you might be making.
but that is their right to believe what they wish. If they want to believe whole-heartedly in Norse mythology, that is their right to do so. It only becomes an issue once they impose their beliefs on others. It can even be thought that atheism is a religious belief in itself. It explains all the things religion does in a unique way.
I think the main reason yelling "fire" and the like are illegal is that such speech is intended to and does cause action on the part of others. Solicitation to commit murder, inciting a riot, making a false report of a crime, uttering a forged instrument and making (credible) verbal threats are illegal for the same reason. None of these are illegal because of the lack of opportunity for analysis or debate, but because of the direct link between speech and action.
Those are in a whole different class than I was thinking of. Those are with the express intent to further a crime. Although I guess the Fire example can fit there too, although I was thinking more of someone who thought it would be funny, but not necessarily anticipate the full breadth of consequences.
The issue though isn't a link between speech and action (PE coaches don't violate this although their barks usually directly create action). It's the link between speech and furthering a specific crime.
Comments
The lines in law, where they exist, tend to be fuzzy, rather than fine.
Now with that said freedom of speech is a special law. And obviously one that cuts both ways. But a key reason why the law should largely exist untampered is that even if you say something I think is offensive, I can rely on a few things:
1) If it's absurd it will be discarded by most people.
2) If it's absurd those people it would convince, probably already believe it.
3) With freedom of speech I can argue the point prior to irreversible damage.
Now there are some cases where freedom of speech don't apply and those are generally cases where the three points above don't apply. For example, the classic of yelling "Fire" in a crowded room. Someone else yelling, "there is no fire" is not likely to be heard and even if "Fire" is seemingly absurd, most people may not discard due to potential harm. Yada yada.
But outside of cases that violate the above, the law should stand. Otherwise the consequences, shutting down opposing speech, will almost certainly be worse.
> If it's absurd it will be discarded by most people.
And yet the various flavors of creationism (all equally absurd by measures of science) have convinced half of the U.S. of their validity.
I generally don't find creationism offensive. While I don't believe it, I'm not offended by it. And I think that's true for most people. It's certainly not the type of thing that ever comes up in free speech arguments. I can't think of any atheist I know (although I'm sure some exist) who want creationism banned in speech or writing.
Agreed. I'm a fairly strong minded atheist and I find creationism offensive. At the same time I would defend to the death the right for creationists to have free speech.
I could understand why one might find the teaching of creationism offensive, but what is offensive about other people holding wrong opinions? I'm sure we each think the other holds several; I'm not offended by the error I perceive you might be making.
but that is their right to believe what they wish. If they want to believe whole-heartedly in Norse mythology, that is their right to do so. It only becomes an issue once they impose their beliefs on others. It can even be thought that atheism is a religious belief in itself. It explains all the things religion does in a unique way.
I think the main reason yelling "fire" and the like are illegal is that such speech is intended to and does cause action on the part of others. Solicitation to commit murder, inciting a riot, making a false report of a crime, uttering a forged instrument and making (credible) verbal threats are illegal for the same reason. None of these are illegal because of the lack of opportunity for analysis or debate, but because of the direct link between speech and action.
Those are in a whole different class than I was thinking of. Those are with the express intent to further a crime. Although I guess the Fire example can fit there too, although I was thinking more of someone who thought it would be funny, but not necessarily anticipate the full breadth of consequences.
The issue though isn't a link between speech and action (PE coaches don't violate this although their barks usually directly create action). It's the link between speech and furthering a specific crime.