Ask me most days and I'll tell you how much I hate javascript... but I can't live without using it as it's pretty much the only option for what it does
Very true, unfortunately.
Just to use it properly requires setting up an entire elaborate webpack setup
This sounds like a self-imposed problem. I've been writing JS for over a decade and never touched webpack (I think it's some sort of compiler/linker)
there's a gajillion frameworks to choose from if you go that route
Emphasis on the word "if". Frameworks are there to make life easier; if they're making your life harder, don't bother. Most things are easy enough in "Vanilla JS", now that IE6 compatibility is less important.
best practices are argued constantly on forums/reddit/hn
Arguing over best practices is a sign of a healthy community, which is passionate about quality rather than settling for "it runs". Learning about new ideas can be useful for framing our thinking, even if we don't directly apply those approaches.
Those sort of arguments shouldn't have much impact on how we actually Get Things Done though, since we know more about the engineering requirements of our particular project than random people online, and we'll be more productive using known-good methods which we're experienced with.
I'd like to build an app on node but I can't ever get past bootstrapping the damn app before I get frustrated at the time it takes just to dive right in.
I've not used Node in years, but again that's a choice; if it makes life harder, dump it and use something easier. Node.js bootstrapping complications aren't really a fault of the JS language; heck, you can use FastCGI if you like (that's how PHP is often run).
I've not used Node in years, but again that's a choice; if it makes life harder, dump it and use something easier. Node.js bootstrapping complications aren't really a fault of the JS language; heck, you can use FastCGI if you like (that's how PHP is often run).
The bootstrapping issue is...that there's really no structure imposed.. I can setup an express script anyway I want, but I'm used to a little more syntactical sugar via rails/laravel world where you know where configs/migrations/models go. Sure I can set it up just like that, but having a go-to way of doing things is nice...
there's a gajillion frameworks to choose from if you go that route
Vanilla js is super difficult if you need reactivity and to maintain state across the app. I'm not sure there's many Single Page Applications or PWA applications that are built using vanilla JS (unless possibly you use Svelte which compiles down to vanilla, but still you're coding using a framework and not vanilla js regardless of what the output is).
It's still ugly and convoluted mess - the ecosystem. It's a lot like php was before laravel/composer (pre 2011).
Just to use it properly requires setting up an entire elaborate webpack setup
Webpack basically loads the scripts/files you need when you need them for specific parts of the app. It's similar to grunt/gulp and there are other tools out there. Laravel Mix sits on top webpack and has a simplified already configured way of using it, and it works for apps that aren't just laravel apps, so I often throw it in my workflow if I'm branching out or trying a different language or framework.
My point was just that php isn't necessarily the most hated, as I know plenty of people who hate js. They might even be equally hated.
Comments
Very true, unfortunately.
This sounds like a self-imposed problem. I've been writing JS for over a decade and never touched webpack (I think it's some sort of compiler/linker)
Emphasis on the word "if". Frameworks are there to make life easier; if they're making your life harder, don't bother. Most things are easy enough in "Vanilla JS", now that IE6 compatibility is less important.
Arguing over best practices is a sign of a healthy community, which is passionate about quality rather than settling for "it runs". Learning about new ideas can be useful for framing our thinking, even if we don't directly apply those approaches.
Those sort of arguments shouldn't have much impact on how we actually Get Things Done though, since we know more about the engineering requirements of our particular project than random people online, and we'll be more productive using known-good methods which we're experienced with.
I've not used Node in years, but again that's a choice; if it makes life harder, dump it and use something easier. Node.js bootstrapping complications aren't really a fault of the JS language; heck, you can use FastCGI if you like (that's how PHP is often run).
The bootstrapping issue is...that there's really no structure imposed.. I can setup an express script anyway I want, but I'm used to a little more syntactical sugar via rails/laravel world where you know where configs/migrations/models go. Sure I can set it up just like that, but having a go-to way of doing things is nice...
Vanilla js is super difficult if you need reactivity and to maintain state across the app. I'm not sure there's many Single Page Applications or PWA applications that are built using vanilla JS (unless possibly you use Svelte which compiles down to vanilla, but still you're coding using a framework and not vanilla js regardless of what the output is).
It's still ugly and convoluted mess - the ecosystem. It's a lot like php was before laravel/composer (pre 2011).
Webpack basically loads the scripts/files you need when you need them for specific parts of the app. It's similar to grunt/gulp and there are other tools out there. Laravel Mix sits on top webpack and has a simplified already configured way of using it, and it works for apps that aren't just laravel apps, so I often throw it in my workflow if I'm branching out or trying a different language or framework.
My point was just that php isn't necessarily the most hated, as I know plenty of people who hate js. They might even be equally hated.