"We take afternoons off to play at the beach, play ultimate Frisbee in the park, go to the movies as a company, have Starcraft 2 nights, etc…"
Spoken like a true "jr engineer" the poster claims to be :) At some point in your life, that stuff just isn't very enticing.
Can people just go home and chill with their family while the rest of you go play frisbee, or will they be ostracized as 'not a team player' if they 'opt out' of afternoon movies/starcraft? A danger in that sort of activity is anyone who doesn't join in may (or will) eventually be left out of key business information.
Glad you found somewhere you enjoy working - keep it up!
Hey I'm Travis the author of the post. Thanks for the feedback. You are right that there are people who probably wouldn't choose to spend that time "playing" with the company. A lot of the activities are optional. However, we do our best to make it fun for those people and it really does seem to have a positive effect on the company culture as a whole. I seriously think if you can't enjoy playing with the people you work with, something is wrong with your team.
I seriously think if you can't enjoy playing with the people you work with, something is wrong with your team.
Personally, I'm an intorvert and just working together with people makes me tired enough to not want to participate in extracurriculum activities with the team, even if it is entertainment.
If it means something is wrong with my team, then something was wrong with my team at every place where I worked.
I do some activities with the team just not to seem too weird - it's not a huge effort and not a big discomfort, but usually I would rather prefer to be elsewhere.
Thanks for replying. I agree that in general, you need to enjoy the people you work with, and occasional 'outside activities' are fine. I've typically done those with colleagues I've worked with at previous companies. If the company was footing the bill, so much the better. There's a fine line that can get crossed when it starts to feel mandatory, or you're made to feel 'not part of the team' if you choose to opt out (had it happen to me, and seen it happen to others).
I'm a developer at Mahalo, and still have time to sing in operas, organize an a cappella group, blog, read, date, play ultimate frisbee, workout 4-5 times/week, code on some personal programming projects, and generally enjoy life. Most of the talk of 80 weeks is way over-hyped. Some times are certainly trying during a push, but it's by no means absurd.
Personally, I love all of the opportunities to hang out with other team members. We spend our working hours together, getting to know each other outside of work means that I get to work with my friends all day. It's awesome. You make a good point about that sort of thing become less enticing as you get older. We have a young team though, so it works out for the most part.
That said though, we have people on the team who never come to any of the outside events, and I wouldn't say that they are treated any differently. Everyone's free to make their own choices in this matter. At the end of the day, if they enjoy the work and we all get along, no one cares what you do when you go home.
I doubt Calacanis take parts in the above activities, and likely, they segment by group, as you say.
If something universally appealing, like going to a nice restaurant or seeing a popular movie like The Social Network, you decided to opt-out of, I would be pretty put-off as an employee, or manager, if you chose not to attend.
Few things happen for individuals - if you declared that you didn't want to spend time with your company, socially, that says you don't really love your job - because the people, and the committed, single vision that comes with it is what makes that adoration arise. If you don't love your job, I question what great things you can truly do, given that non-commitment.
So, sure, you can be OK and opt-out. But if you do, I'm pretty certain that's exactly all you can be.
Seeing "the social network" is not universally appealing - sorry.
Restaurant, yeah, I get that. And now and then group activities - sure. But weekly frisbee outings at the beach, etc - too much.
I'm a bit wary of people who love the idea of working for someone else, period. If you love a job, I question what great things you can do.
Of course, many people from all walks of life do accomplish great things in all capacities, so perhaps judging someone based on your own view of what they should and shouldn't love is a tad short-sighted.
BTW, if JC isn't participating in all those group outings, what message is that sending to everyone else? They're socially pressured in to company rah-rah BS while he's above it?
EDIT - just saw a JC reply re: activities. Cool enough - no t everyone can make everything. Got it.
Depends on the restaurant. If I don't like, for example, italian food, and the company goes to an italian restaurant, I may want to opt out. What if everyone else loved italian food and always wanted to go there? I would argue that there really isn't very much that is universally appealing.
Agreed, even that. I was trying to be charitable. Similar situation - had a group that loved seafood. I hate seafood. I'd go now and then, but angled for non-seafood places to balance things out (and it worked). Had they insisted on seafood all the time, I'd have bowed out of those gatherings (as politely as possible).
Actually, I teach tae kwon do with members of the team, participate in fit club and host movie night. We do movie night at Gold Pass Cinema... which is the most amazing movie theater on the planet... we take over the entire room and they serve dinner in our seats in these huge amazing seats. There are number of folks other than me who have kids, and we sometimes can't make it to everything.... but we make it some of the fun/cult-like things. :-)
I think its ironic that you defend all these perks and team strengthening outings yet you scoff many times at the idea that people looking for balance are not right for your teams, and you insinuate they are weak.
What these outings and perks provide is a certain level of balance.
Additionally, I think that one can find so much inspiration for innovation in areas that are totally unrelated to the tech magic they may focus on at work.
I find inspiration and ideas in the most amazing places, almost all of which come from talking to non-technical people about what it is they do and seeing amazing opportunity to change the way they work, fill a void in an industry or create something based on a need.
limiting your feedback loop to your small, albeit talented pool of resources, is still a limited feedback loop.
Jason, I have a challenge for you: Have some team, or staff of at least five people take a vacation off-grid: NO (Smart)phone, NO email, NO Internet at all - get them all a moleskin notebook and 5 days of staying out of the office, but out of their homes with no access to the online world and challenge them to come back with some ideas that were formulated from their talking to, interacting with and observing the world around them. (They can use voice-phone only for family)
They need journal the week by hand - and none can interact with eachother.
Have them return with the goal of a list of goals/ideas/opportunities.
I think this would reveal a lot about the team and your work ethos.
I'm not saying you should do these things daily, but to not do them as a one-off occasionally would be ridiculous, to me. Even if you love your family more - which you should.
Some places take that attitude to the extreme, and for people who just want/need to put in a standard 9-5 and get their work done, feeling forced to participate in extraneous stuff in the name of 'bonding with the team' is awkward.
edit: can't reply to jpwagner again(?):
re: "forced" not appearing in the original text. Have you never felt social pressure to do something, even (especially) when someone indicated something was 'totally optional'?
Travis the author of the post here. To clarify there are required hours, and sometimes we get to use some of those hours to "play" rather than work. I can't say that's always going to work but it seems to work pretty awesomely at Mahalo. Maybe it's because we are a really young team.
Comments
"We take afternoons off to play at the beach, play ultimate Frisbee in the park, go to the movies as a company, have Starcraft 2 nights, etc…"
Spoken like a true "jr engineer" the poster claims to be :) At some point in your life, that stuff just isn't very enticing.
Can people just go home and chill with their family while the rest of you go play frisbee, or will they be ostracized as 'not a team player' if they 'opt out' of afternoon movies/starcraft? A danger in that sort of activity is anyone who doesn't join in may (or will) eventually be left out of key business information.
Glad you found somewhere you enjoy working - keep it up!
Hey I'm Travis the author of the post. Thanks for the feedback. You are right that there are people who probably wouldn't choose to spend that time "playing" with the company. A lot of the activities are optional. However, we do our best to make it fun for those people and it really does seem to have a positive effect on the company culture as a whole. I seriously think if you can't enjoy playing with the people you work with, something is wrong with your team.
I seriously think if you can't enjoy playing with the people you work with, something is wrong with your team.
Personally, I'm an intorvert and just working together with people makes me tired enough to not want to participate in extracurriculum activities with the team, even if it is entertainment. If it means something is wrong with my team, then something was wrong with my team at every place where I worked. I do some activities with the team just not to seem too weird - it's not a huge effort and not a big discomfort, but usually I would rather prefer to be elsewhere.
Thanks for replying. I agree that in general, you need to enjoy the people you work with, and occasional 'outside activities' are fine. I've typically done those with colleagues I've worked with at previous companies. If the company was footing the bill, so much the better. There's a fine line that can get crossed when it starts to feel mandatory, or you're made to feel 'not part of the team' if you choose to opt out (had it happen to me, and seen it happen to others).
I'm a developer at Mahalo, and still have time to sing in operas, organize an a cappella group, blog, read, date, play ultimate frisbee, workout 4-5 times/week, code on some personal programming projects, and generally enjoy life. Most of the talk of 80 weeks is way over-hyped. Some times are certainly trying during a push, but it's by no means absurd.
Personally, I love all of the opportunities to hang out with other team members. We spend our working hours together, getting to know each other outside of work means that I get to work with my friends all day. It's awesome. You make a good point about that sort of thing become less enticing as you get older. We have a young team though, so it works out for the most part.
That said though, we have people on the team who never come to any of the outside events, and I wouldn't say that they are treated any differently. Everyone's free to make their own choices in this matter. At the end of the day, if they enjoy the work and we all get along, no one cares what you do when you go home.
I doubt Calacanis take parts in the above activities, and likely, they segment by group, as you say.
If something universally appealing, like going to a nice restaurant or seeing a popular movie like The Social Network, you decided to opt-out of, I would be pretty put-off as an employee, or manager, if you chose not to attend.
Few things happen for individuals - if you declared that you didn't want to spend time with your company, socially, that says you don't really love your job - because the people, and the committed, single vision that comes with it is what makes that adoration arise. If you don't love your job, I question what great things you can truly do, given that non-commitment.
So, sure, you can be OK and opt-out. But if you do, I'm pretty certain that's exactly all you can be.
Seeing "the social network" is not universally appealing - sorry.
Restaurant, yeah, I get that. And now and then group activities - sure. But weekly frisbee outings at the beach, etc - too much.
I'm a bit wary of people who love the idea of working for someone else, period. If you love a job, I question what great things you can do.
Of course, many people from all walks of life do accomplish great things in all capacities, so perhaps judging someone based on your own view of what they should and shouldn't love is a tad short-sighted.
BTW, if JC isn't participating in all those group outings, what message is that sending to everyone else? They're socially pressured in to company rah-rah BS while he's above it?
EDIT - just saw a JC reply re: activities. Cool enough - no t everyone can make everything. Got it.
Restaurant, yeah, I get that.
Depends on the restaurant. If I don't like, for example, italian food, and the company goes to an italian restaurant, I may want to opt out. What if everyone else loved italian food and always wanted to go there? I would argue that there really isn't very much that is universally appealing.
Agreed, even that. I was trying to be charitable. Similar situation - had a group that loved seafood. I hate seafood. I'd go now and then, but angled for non-seafood places to balance things out (and it worked). Had they insisted on seafood all the time, I'd have bowed out of those gatherings (as politely as possible).
Actually, I teach tae kwon do with members of the team, participate in fit club and host movie night. We do movie night at Gold Pass Cinema... which is the most amazing movie theater on the planet... we take over the entire room and they serve dinner in our seats in these huge amazing seats. There are number of folks other than me who have kids, and we sometimes can't make it to everything.... but we make it some of the fun/cult-like things. :-)
I think its ironic that you defend all these perks and team strengthening outings yet you scoff many times at the idea that people looking for balance are not right for your teams, and you insinuate they are weak.
What these outings and perks provide is a certain level of balance.
Additionally, I think that one can find so much inspiration for innovation in areas that are totally unrelated to the tech magic they may focus on at work.
I find inspiration and ideas in the most amazing places, almost all of which come from talking to non-technical people about what it is they do and seeing amazing opportunity to change the way they work, fill a void in an industry or create something based on a need.
limiting your feedback loop to your small, albeit talented pool of resources, is still a limited feedback loop.
Jason, I have a challenge for you: Have some team, or staff of at least five people take a vacation off-grid: NO (Smart)phone, NO email, NO Internet at all - get them all a moleskin notebook and 5 days of staying out of the office, but out of their homes with no access to the online world and challenge them to come back with some ideas that were formulated from their talking to, interacting with and observing the world around them. (They can use voice-phone only for family)
They need journal the week by hand - and none can interact with eachother.
Have them return with the goal of a list of goals/ideas/opportunities.
I think this would reveal a lot about the team and your work ethos.
> if you declared that you didn't want to spend time with your company, socially, that says you don't really love your job
Or it just says that you love your family more than you love your job. That's hardly outrageous.
I'm not saying you should do these things daily, but to not do them as a one-off occasionally would be ridiculous, to me. Even if you love your family more - which you should.
I read this line simply as: typical 9 to 5 is not required. I'm not sure what you're going on about.
Some places take that attitude to the extreme, and for people who just want/need to put in a standard 9-5 and get their work done, feeling forced to participate in extraneous stuff in the name of 'bonding with the team' is awkward.
edit: can't reply to jpwagner again(?): re: "forced" not appearing in the original text. Have you never felt social pressure to do something, even (especially) when someone indicated something was 'totally optional'?
a quick search on the original post found zero matches for "force"
Yes, very very few things at Mahalo are mandated for everyone. And the stuff that is, should be. Thanks for the feedback.
Travis the author of the post here. To clarify there are required hours, and sometimes we get to use some of those hours to "play" rather than work. I can't say that's always going to work but it seems to work pretty awesomely at Mahalo. Maybe it's because we are a really young team.