One of the lessons of the USSR, your leader saying something is so and shooting / exiling everyone who says different does not make for a prosperous, sustainable government.
While China today isn't nearly as bad as the USSR was, their authoritarian government that still jails and executes political opponents hasn't stopped their political stability and economic success.
It was the ignore reality part that USSR did so wrong (with shooting/jailing being a result). China doesn't seem to have a problem with ignoring reality.
Wikipedia says the Great Purges had over a million and a half victims, with close to seven hundred thousand shot.
This was in the 1930s under Stalin. USSR has more history than that; when I lived there, no one I knew was shot, no one was exiled; nor was anyone afraid of being shot or exiled (I can tell you what they were afraid of, though). My great grandmother's generation certainly remembered those times though.
Your statement plays on the perception that I have seen in the US that the USSR was this terrible place and all of its citizens hated it. I don't know if you are from the US, so, I will not make any assumptions. I can tell you that the propaganda machine here in the US is at least as good as it was in the USSR.
Actually, my original statement was based off the reappearing theme in many governments of "shoot the messenger". They're model was wrong and they didn't want to see what the correction was. I actually really had no comment on the populace in general and it seems they had their own disagreements.
For the purpose of the article (and my comment) it really doesn't matter how the populace felt. My second comment had some snark due to your "idiotic statements" comment. But, there is a lot of reported history of purges, removal from film (had an article right here on HN about that), and exile of people whose opinions didn't jive with the current regime.
Saying something very contrary to the establishment always had consequences (and still has, even in the US). Under Stalin, the consequences were lethal. At other times, plenty of people disagreed with the establishment and were just fine. My problem with your original statement was that it was very much a blanket statement. It applied to some parts of USSR's history and less to others.
In USSR, I recall propaganda that said that everyone in the US was racist and that blacks were uniformly mistreated. Of course, the reality is that there was slavery, there was the civil rights movement and that now things are different. Broad statements like that smack of propaganda.
"My problem with your original statement was that it was very much a blanket statement. It applied to some parts of USSR's history and less to others."
I am pretty sure the statement applied to the whole run of the USSR. Maybe more in parts and less in others, but they ignored the reality of their situation.
You seem to be trying to add things to what I said that have nothing to do with the statement and truly I am never happy with the "well your just as bad/worse" argument. It really doesn't have anything to do with what I said or prove me wrong. For example, the whole second paragraph of the above post has nothing to do with what I said.
Comments
One of the lessons of the USSR, your leader saying something is so and shooting / exiling everyone who says different does not make for a prosperous, sustainable government.
Counterpoint: China
While China today isn't nearly as bad as the USSR was, their authoritarian government that still jails and executes political opponents hasn't stopped their political stability and economic success.
It was the ignore reality part that USSR did so wrong (with shooting/jailing being a result). China doesn't seem to have a problem with ignoring reality.
The US jails far more people today than the USSR ever managed to. It seems to be working out okay for us.
> The US jails far more people today than the USSR ever managed to. It seems to be working out okay for us.
Who you jail and the effect that said jailing has on other people also matters.
So, it's fine to jail millions, as long as they're people who sell or smoke pot and not people who you consider important?
I didn't say that either jailing system was good. I said that they had different properties.
But, now that you've brought it up, do you think that they're equally bad? (Note - "both bad" doesn't imply "equal".)
Amazing that the propaganda campaign has been so successful that people make idiotic statements like that.
So, what was the actual death toll from purges in the USSR?
Wikipedia says the Great Purges had over a million and a half victims, with close to seven hundred thousand shot.
This was in the 1930s under Stalin. USSR has more history than that; when I lived there, no one I knew was shot, no one was exiled; nor was anyone afraid of being shot or exiled (I can tell you what they were afraid of, though). My great grandmother's generation certainly remembered those times though.
Your statement plays on the perception that I have seen in the US that the USSR was this terrible place and all of its citizens hated it. I don't know if you are from the US, so, I will not make any assumptions. I can tell you that the propaganda machine here in the US is at least as good as it was in the USSR.
Actually, my original statement was based off the reappearing theme in many governments of "shoot the messenger". They're model was wrong and they didn't want to see what the correction was. I actually really had no comment on the populace in general and it seems they had their own disagreements.
For the purpose of the article (and my comment) it really doesn't matter how the populace felt. My second comment had some snark due to your "idiotic statements" comment. But, there is a lot of reported history of purges, removal from film (had an article right here on HN about that), and exile of people whose opinions didn't jive with the current regime.
Saying something very contrary to the establishment always had consequences (and still has, even in the US). Under Stalin, the consequences were lethal. At other times, plenty of people disagreed with the establishment and were just fine. My problem with your original statement was that it was very much a blanket statement. It applied to some parts of USSR's history and less to others.
In USSR, I recall propaganda that said that everyone in the US was racist and that blacks were uniformly mistreated. Of course, the reality is that there was slavery, there was the civil rights movement and that now things are different. Broad statements like that smack of propaganda.
"My problem with your original statement was that it was very much a blanket statement. It applied to some parts of USSR's history and less to others."
I am pretty sure the statement applied to the whole run of the USSR. Maybe more in parts and less in others, but they ignored the reality of their situation.
You seem to be trying to add things to what I said that have nothing to do with the statement and truly I am never happy with the "well your just as bad/worse" argument. It really doesn't have anything to do with what I said or prove me wrong. For example, the whole second paragraph of the above post has nothing to do with what I said.