warning: heavily political and opinionated content below.
Due to it's tiny size in land, I believe Europe should be a single country. I still believe in the idea of EU: what it stands for, what it means.
However, the past couple of years have been terrible. The whole Brexit vote only gone through because one can't fight lies with logic and nobody from the Remain side realised this. (Yes, lies, admitted by Leave campaign faces, see morning TV interview the next morning). Everyone sat back, completely ignorant to the option that people will believe those who show up in their village halls with a speech, even if it's mostly made up. The whole reaction of the EU to Brexit is that Britain made and idiotic decision and the EU will not bend due to this. Divorces happen, sometimes it's stupid, like in this case, but that doesn't mean the sides need to be assholes towards each other.
Apart from Brexit, there is still no central response or governing to the immigration through the Mediterranean and it's been a serious problem for years; it gave enough ground for the Hungarian governing party to build a hate driven election campaign around it and win with it.
And than suddenly that complete madness copyright law idea pops up.
This is not the EU I voted to join as a Hungarian in 2004. I might have been under-informed, and the EU might always have been like this, but if it does, something needs to change.
So, answering your question: no, one law is not enough. It's a long series of "wth?" reaction from my side, including no decision decisions, stiff attitude, pitiful procedures like .eu termination, which goes way beyond mere politics - think of personal domains -, and genuinely bad law ideas. Enough of these can drive someone away from an originally beautiful and invaluable union.
It's not for me to prescribe the response, I am genuinely curious about how close to the line people who dislike Brexit are. Living in the EU, how close are people feeling to saying 'fuck it, let's do it live' and just winging it like the UK is preparing to do?
Personally, if you are interested, I feel like Brexit leaves everyone worse off overall. The UK will continue to implement just as stupid up-tight fear laws and stifle creativity and productivity in exchange for perceived 'safety'. The EU's copyright proposal is bad, but Theresa May's approach to solving the UK's perceived moral and ethnic threats is likely worse.
I honestly don't know how a pro-Brexit government could be anything but unfavourable. Brexit is born out of small minded nationalism. The people who voted for it did so in fear of 'other', the people who promoted it were liars and shysters who have pretty nefarious agendas.
I do get your point though, I think my mind is just clouded with disappointment and a feeling of loss for my country of origin and all my friends and family who live there.
I won’t respond to an ad hominem. But I would suggest giving an alternative position the benefit of doubt in assuming there are legitimate reasons to hold that view and investigate what they might be.
Tell me, what supposition(s) would have you believe EU-exit to be the correct choice? If you are engaging honestly you should have an answer for that.
For an EU exit to be an agreeable choice, well at the risk of being drawn into an argument based on inappropriately simplified premisses, but here goes...
To exit the EU I think a fundamental member nation like the UK would need to observe, without cynicism, that the EU was somehow now incompatible with the UK's long-term socio-economic plans.
The UK would then need to make a thorough exit plan that demonstrably showed, again without cynicism, how the UK and its people would prosper and continue to support its allies and uphold it's principles and commitments.
This plan would then need to be proposed to the people in clear terms, without bias, without a marketing budget in an engaged bipartisan, honest manner.
In this day and age it really is not hard to see what is wrong with politics. It's so easy to imagine a 'better' way of doing almost anything. There is far too much polarity, one-upmanship, ego, self serving, and down-right 'fuck you' to the opposition. Trump and others literally fuck over the previous incumbent's changes just for the status and message it sends. Almost nothing is done for 'the people', everything is done for show and status. There simply is no substance any more.
Thank you for responding! Too few people have the courage to actually evaluate what would make them change their minds. Kudos to you for doing so.
I agree for the most part. And to be clear I’m not a British citizen so I don’t have a strong stake in this, but I am a EU skeptic and it bugs me when people assert that the Brexit position must be mentally deranged or some such. That’s a rhetorical cheap shot that speaks to the base instead of contributing to conversation.
With my Brexit hat on, I think we agree in spirit. I think the Leave movement DOES feel that the EU is and has been for some time moving against the long term interests of the UK. I even agree with this view myself.
However I think the thresholds you set for moving on it are too high and too optimistic. Politicians didn’t want Brexit, and those same politicians would be the ones responsible for creating such a plan. It’s not like you or I can negotiate with the EU terms for Brexit without the UK government’s participation. And that wasn’t going to happen. You clearly have your own cynicism, I just think you need to extend it to both sides of an issue. And that’s being realistic, not cynical :)
The mistake that was made, I feel, was in letting this be decided by a simple majority. They should have used a 3/5 or 2/3 threshold instead.
I agree with the `3/5 or 2/3 threshold instead` threshold, absolutely. You also understand that the referendum was never legally binding, if the politicians really didn't want to do exit the EU they could have deferred an exit, got a better deal, or just do nothing at all. The reality is, there was considerable wheel greasing to get Brexit moving through as quickly as possible once the Leave vote was in.
To be clear, many UK euro skeptics exist in parliament and are delighted with the vote [1]. That's a recent article but as far back as I can remember (1980/90s) the Tory Eurosceptics particularly have disliked Europe in principle. And the vote leave campaign was basically a quasi-coup conducted by the Eurosceptics fronted by Boris Johnson (MP) who is essentially a public school version of Trump.
Essentially D.Cameron said to his Eurosceptic members 'if I get in we'll have a vote'[2], and it backfired - the Eurosceptics mislead the public, he lost and had to resign and they got May into government without anyone even having to vote for her. In the face of such machinations you have to give me a pass on my own cynicism, it's hard to have any good faith confronted with such dishonest nonsense.
To say politicians didn't want Brexit is really misunderstanding a fundamental element of the UK's socio-political climate.
You could be, for example, remember that the UK already had a internet filtering program which forced ISPs to monitor all the content shared by users within the UK, and the UK government was forced to withdraw it because it was incompatible with the EU Charter of fundamental rights. Yes, that same charter that is going to be repelled after the Brexit.
Comments
Does disagreeing with a single (admittedly shitty) law really mean you would align with Brexit? What a terrible situation Europe is slipping into.
warning: heavily political and opinionated content below.
Due to it's tiny size in land, I believe Europe should be a single country. I still believe in the idea of EU: what it stands for, what it means.
However, the past couple of years have been terrible. The whole Brexit vote only gone through because one can't fight lies with logic and nobody from the Remain side realised this. (Yes, lies, admitted by Leave campaign faces, see morning TV interview the next morning). Everyone sat back, completely ignorant to the option that people will believe those who show up in their village halls with a speech, even if it's mostly made up. The whole reaction of the EU to Brexit is that Britain made and idiotic decision and the EU will not bend due to this. Divorces happen, sometimes it's stupid, like in this case, but that doesn't mean the sides need to be assholes towards each other.
Apart from Brexit, there is still no central response or governing to the immigration through the Mediterranean and it's been a serious problem for years; it gave enough ground for the Hungarian governing party to build a hate driven election campaign around it and win with it.
And than suddenly that complete madness copyright law idea pops up.
This is not the EU I voted to join as a Hungarian in 2004. I might have been under-informed, and the EU might always have been like this, but if it does, something needs to change.
So, answering your question: no, one law is not enough. It's a long series of "wth?" reaction from my side, including no decision decisions, stiff attitude, pitiful procedures like .eu termination, which goes way beyond mere politics - think of personal domains -, and genuinely bad law ideas. Enough of these can drive someone away from an originally beautiful and invaluable union.
How should he respond instead? Complacency?
It's not for me to prescribe the response, I am genuinely curious about how close to the line people who dislike Brexit are. Living in the EU, how close are people feeling to saying 'fuck it, let's do it live' and just winging it like the UK is preparing to do?
Personally, if you are interested, I feel like Brexit leaves everyone worse off overall. The UK will continue to implement just as stupid up-tight fear laws and stifle creativity and productivity in exchange for perceived 'safety'. The EU's copyright proposal is bad, but Theresa May's approach to solving the UK's perceived moral and ethnic threats is likely worse.
False dichotomy perhaps. One can be pro-Brexit while not liking Theresa May’s government’s handling of the mandate.
I honestly don't know how a pro-Brexit government could be anything but unfavourable. Brexit is born out of small minded nationalism. The people who voted for it did so in fear of 'other', the people who promoted it were liars and shysters who have pretty nefarious agendas.
I do get your point though, I think my mind is just clouded with disappointment and a feeling of loss for my country of origin and all my friends and family who live there.
I won’t respond to an ad hominem. But I would suggest giving an alternative position the benefit of doubt in assuming there are legitimate reasons to hold that view and investigate what they might be.
Tell me, what supposition(s) would have you believe EU-exit to be the correct choice? If you are engaging honestly you should have an answer for that.
For an EU exit to be an agreeable choice, well at the risk of being drawn into an argument based on inappropriately simplified premisses, but here goes...
To exit the EU I think a fundamental member nation like the UK would need to observe, without cynicism, that the EU was somehow now incompatible with the UK's long-term socio-economic plans.
The UK would then need to make a thorough exit plan that demonstrably showed, again without cynicism, how the UK and its people would prosper and continue to support its allies and uphold it's principles and commitments.
This plan would then need to be proposed to the people in clear terms, without bias, without a marketing budget in an engaged bipartisan, honest manner.
In this day and age it really is not hard to see what is wrong with politics. It's so easy to imagine a 'better' way of doing almost anything. There is far too much polarity, one-upmanship, ego, self serving, and down-right 'fuck you' to the opposition. Trump and others literally fuck over the previous incumbent's changes just for the status and message it sends. Almost nothing is done for 'the people', everything is done for show and status. There simply is no substance any more.
Thank you for responding! Too few people have the courage to actually evaluate what would make them change their minds. Kudos to you for doing so.
I agree for the most part. And to be clear I’m not a British citizen so I don’t have a strong stake in this, but I am a EU skeptic and it bugs me when people assert that the Brexit position must be mentally deranged or some such. That’s a rhetorical cheap shot that speaks to the base instead of contributing to conversation.
With my Brexit hat on, I think we agree in spirit. I think the Leave movement DOES feel that the EU is and has been for some time moving against the long term interests of the UK. I even agree with this view myself.
However I think the thresholds you set for moving on it are too high and too optimistic. Politicians didn’t want Brexit, and those same politicians would be the ones responsible for creating such a plan. It’s not like you or I can negotiate with the EU terms for Brexit without the UK government’s participation. And that wasn’t going to happen. You clearly have your own cynicism, I just think you need to extend it to both sides of an issue. And that’s being realistic, not cynical :)
The mistake that was made, I feel, was in letting this be decided by a simple majority. They should have used a 3/5 or 2/3 threshold instead.
I agree with the `3/5 or 2/3 threshold instead` threshold, absolutely. You also understand that the referendum was never legally binding, if the politicians really didn't want to do exit the EU they could have deferred an exit, got a better deal, or just do nothing at all. The reality is, there was considerable wheel greasing to get Brexit moving through as quickly as possible once the Leave vote was in.
To be clear, many UK euro skeptics exist in parliament and are delighted with the vote [1]. That's a recent article but as far back as I can remember (1980/90s) the Tory Eurosceptics particularly have disliked Europe in principle. And the vote leave campaign was basically a quasi-coup conducted by the Eurosceptics fronted by Boris Johnson (MP) who is essentially a public school version of Trump.
Essentially D.Cameron said to his Eurosceptic members 'if I get in we'll have a vote'[2], and it backfired - the Eurosceptics mislead the public, he lost and had to resign and they got May into government without anyone even having to vote for her. In the face of such machinations you have to give me a pass on my own cynicism, it's hard to have any good faith confronted with such dishonest nonsense.
To say politicians didn't want Brexit is really misunderstanding a fundamental element of the UK's socio-political climate.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/09/tory-mps-br... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Union_...
Does the average American respond to a stupid law by campaigning for secession?
Well my hometown has an actual armed separatist militia over California banning .50 cals....so to answer you question: definitely.
Also try talking to any Texan outside of Austin.
Like leaving NAFTA? Yes, yes they do.
You could be, for example, remember that the UK already had a internet filtering program which forced ISPs to monitor all the content shared by users within the UK, and the UK government was forced to withdraw it because it was incompatible with the EU Charter of fundamental rights. Yes, that same charter that is going to be repelled after the Brexit.
Exactly. Thinking that the UK without the EU is going to do any better is either naive or willingly ignorant.
With people like May at the helm the UK is already well on its way to a special episode of Black Mirror.