People underestimate a lot the power of "useless" features, if well designed, to attract new users.
Telegram's Stickers are probably one of the features that most people feel other messengers lack to make people enjoy using it. Lots of friends are actually communicating daily through GIF's.
And when she has them, it'll be something different ridiculous. Seriously, this is what whatsapp is for. I don't see why we have to dump down EVERYTHING for those people.
From my own experience the biggest reason is that "my friends are elsewhere". I force my gf to use signal, her mother started to use it too because of that and because she wants to have PC problems solved by me. Same goes for other people that want to interact with me through an communication app like Signal. Other just have to call or write an SMS. Those functions are still there.
You call it 'dumb down', I call "useful way of communication". Gifs are a form of communication. You might not use it, but most people do.
Signal will not get traction because people want to have their PC problems fixed by Nerd friends. My IT club group chat are all nerds, yet we still do not use Signal, because things like gifs were missing.
The Strategy of Signal is to make a mass market chat client that is save. Not a nerd utopia chat client.
EVERYTHING
Everything? Really?
I don't remember my mother asking for reproducible APK compilation. I don't remember her asking about the the forward security properties of the communication protocol.
Gifs are a form of communication. You might not use it, but most people do.
Just like most people use whatsapp and I don't want to stop them at all. BUT there is a demand for a secure communication application that does just this. Secure communication.
I don't say they should never put in funny gifs or whatever is fancy or trendy aka "necessary" today when they are done with it and when it does not risk the main claim of the product at all.
But seeing that the priorities switch to really unnecessary stuff when there are so many important things that could be done with that, is sad and bringing in a bunch of trendy kids ideas in there won't help at all. You may be happy with your gifs then but if this is the case, and those are the features you consider important, you many be more of a problem for this product and the claim then a gain. And honestly, Signal survived without it, it wouldn't die not having it.
My IT club group chat are all nerds, yet we still do not use Signal, because things like gifs were missing.
So what do you say? Would your "IT club" fall apart without it? Would you switch to unsecure messaging without it? If yes: Signal should not care about you at all because the marked is already covered with alternatives better suited for you. If no: why are you arguing with me?
Edit: my god...I misread that in your favour. You really don't use Signal because there is no gif search in it....this is...I don't even..
The Strategy of Signal is to make a mass market chat client that is save. Not a nerd utopia chat client.
If their priorities are gif search and not an account without a number, secure contact sharing or all those other requests that have been out there, they will end up being not more then what WhatsApp is atm. If you think this is a viable marketing method, you should join a economics club instead.
I don't remember my mother asking for reproducible APK compilation.
I was talking about the app in general. We have enough apps out there with fancy trending useless crap you miss so much. It even uses the same encryption. We don't need more of the same.
Encryption is only really useful when everybody participates. Otherwise you just have to arrest the people using it. So dumbing it down is actually pretty important.
Or basic message reliability? There's no reason I should be getting "Bad encrypted message" so often. Or tons of repeats. And out of order messages. And random deliverability problems.
And it seems like it has a way of picking just the right time to fuck up. Right when there's a big question or when I need to say something important, bam, Signal will start being erratic. Plus the repeat messages has on at least one occasion ended up providing a totally different meaning.
I'd say with one particular contact, we exchange screenshots of Signal over MMS once a day to avoid misunderstandings.
I've given up on Signal (for now at least). Yes the encryption and privacy is great but without a decent desktop client it's hard to get others in my network to switch to it.
Two things bothered me about the desktop application - it runs as a Chrome application rather than in a tab (not sure if there is a technical reason for this?). If I care enough out privacy to run Signal then I probably don't want to broadcast to anyone watching my screen that I'm running it (like a boss walking past etc) and would rather bury it amongst my other open tabs. I also couldn't find any obvious way to sign out of or lock the desktop client - if this isn't just user error then it seems like a significant oversight for a secure messaging app to not allow the user to control access if someone else was able to access the computer.
It also really bothered me that signal doesn't give me better control over what contacts can see my phone number. When I signed in I could see phone numbers for a contractor I had used for remodelling my home. The desktop client had them listed as someone to message on the default page. It's not a huge deal in this situation but if the phone number was for someone I no longer wanted to be in touch with (a former partner etc) then there was no obvious way in either the Android app or desktop client to block them. I assume that the other user can also see my details - security should include having control over who can see your phone number.
Edit:
Screenshots from the desktop app as a response to comment below:
There is a desktop client. It's packaged as a Chrome app. Some people downthread think a "decent" desktop app must be (more) standalone. You seem to think a "decent" desktop app should live inside a browser tab. It's hard to make everybody happy. People need to stop claiming there is no desktop app just because the very clearly existing one does not fulfill their own arbitrary set of criteria.
I don't know if you can sign out within Signal desktop (I assume you can, but I can't verify at the moment); you can sign out existing Signal sessions from within the mobile app.
The phone number is Signal's account identifier. You don't see somebody else's phone number because you've got them on Signal, you're seeing them on Signal because you've got their phone number. So you're worried about people having access to your phone number who already have access to your phone number. Signal using phone numbers as account identifiers has it's issues, this is not one of them.
I don't mean to be negative about Signal. I appreciate the work they have put into it and understand that the platform is maturing - as you said, they can't please everyone.
The chrome app vs tab is definitely a minor issue related to user preference. It's not a deal breaker for me personally but others in my network (who are less concerned about privacy) will not switch if it's not easy. Not being able to sign out is a possible deal breaker and seems like basic functionality that has security implications.
Thanks for the information about the phone numbers - I understand that they aren't a "contact" in the sense that we added each other. I do think the issue of having control over who can see my phone number is a valid one though. How would I block someone I no longer want to have contact with without changing my phone number? Again, this seems like basic functionality for a platform that is concerned about security and privacy.
Here are screenshots from the desktop app showing the only options I can see:
http://imgur.com/5nK07ER - the default screen (includes the contact that I mentioned in my first post as someone I can message right now.)
Okay, I checked now, and you're right, there does not seem to be a way to sign out (or, as they call it, unlink) the desktop app from within the desktop app. I agree, that's weird.
As a workaround, you can unlink using the phone app[1], and I assume (but have not checked) deleting the desktop app will also work.
Thanks - I see it in there now. For anyone else looking for it, it's under options/conversation settings when you are in conversation view. Thanks again.
I can live with it being a Chrome app, but I'd really like it if I could use it to send messages to people who don't have Signal (like I can with the Android app). Signal mostly takes the path of being a drop-in replacement for my SMS app, so it seems a shame not to do the same here.
1) We're moving from a mobile-first to mobile-only world. This prioritization shows that the signal team are fundamentally pragmatic.
2) Most people rely on cliche to communicate. It's obvious that gifs are another cheat that is being commonly integrated by most people. It's kind of silly to avoid acknowledging the reality of how younger people are commonly communicating.
3) Please don't be sad because a software team prioritized a feature you don't like. You deserve to have more control over your own emotions. Why would you let a software feature have such a drastic impact on your own happiness?
I think the key thing is not to sacrifice performance for form. Add all the stickers, GIFs, bots and other fancy features you want. But never let load time get under 200ms. Lots of people talking about how this makes it more broadly applicable but Facebook didn't just beat MySpace on simplicity of use and Farmville access, they also beat them on speed and reliability. Not mutually exclusive either. Keep up the good work.
Read this article yesterday (https://www.techinasia.com/line-dev-day), and the introduction was eye-opening. tl;dr people like that extra stuff in messaging apps.
Sure they do. But how this go together with security awareness? We are talking about a different market here and as I've posted somewhere else: sure we can have all that trendy crap in there at some point but please don't move that BEFORE the bigger issues out there. Let's not forget that we are talking about a free app here. If this app is being developed with an eye on monetizing at some point, chances are it will become insecure with that and just join the rows of chat apps out there already covering all that trending features. Which will lead to a different app covering the needs of people who use Signal today because they need secure messaging not another app with dancing puppies.
Comments
It makes me sad so see that they waste time on decoration like gif search but they don't have a client I can use on my PC for example.
I honestly don't know if this comment is serious. My girlfriend won't use Signal because it doesn't let her send stickers.
This is only a first step in the right direction.
People underestimate a lot the power of "useless" features, if well designed, to attract new users.
Telegram's Stickers are probably one of the features that most people feel other messengers lack to make people enjoy using it. Lots of friends are actually communicating daily through GIF's.
The desktop client without having to have my phone around is useful too.
There is a desktop client. Even if you don't use chrome/chromium, keeping it open somewhere is not impossible task.
And when she has them, it'll be something different ridiculous. Seriously, this is what whatsapp is for. I don't see why we have to dump down EVERYTHING for those people.
From my own experience the biggest reason is that "my friends are elsewhere". I force my gf to use signal, her mother started to use it too because of that and because she wants to have PC problems solved by me. Same goes for other people that want to interact with me through an communication app like Signal. Other just have to call or write an SMS. Those functions are still there.
You call it 'dumb down', I call "useful way of communication". Gifs are a form of communication. You might not use it, but most people do.
Signal will not get traction because people want to have their PC problems fixed by Nerd friends. My IT club group chat are all nerds, yet we still do not use Signal, because things like gifs were missing.
The Strategy of Signal is to make a mass market chat client that is save. Not a nerd utopia chat client.
Everything? Really?
I don't remember my mother asking for reproducible APK compilation. I don't remember her asking about the the forward security properties of the communication protocol.
Just like most people use whatsapp and I don't want to stop them at all. BUT there is a demand for a secure communication application that does just this. Secure communication.
I don't say they should never put in funny gifs or whatever is fancy or trendy aka "necessary" today when they are done with it and when it does not risk the main claim of the product at all.
But seeing that the priorities switch to really unnecessary stuff when there are so many important things that could be done with that, is sad and bringing in a bunch of trendy kids ideas in there won't help at all. You may be happy with your gifs then but if this is the case, and those are the features you consider important, you many be more of a problem for this product and the claim then a gain. And honestly, Signal survived without it, it wouldn't die not having it.
So what do you say? Would your "IT club" fall apart without it? Would you switch to unsecure messaging without it? If yes: Signal should not care about you at all because the marked is already covered with alternatives better suited for you. If no: why are you arguing with me?
Edit: my god...I misread that in your favour. You really don't use Signal because there is no gif search in it....this is...I don't even..
If their priorities are gif search and not an account without a number, secure contact sharing or all those other requests that have been out there, they will end up being not more then what WhatsApp is atm. If you think this is a viable marketing method, you should join a economics club instead.
I was talking about the app in general. We have enough apps out there with fancy trending useless crap you miss so much. It even uses the same encryption. We don't need more of the same.
Encryption is only really useful when everybody participates. Otherwise you just have to arrest the people using it. So dumbing it down is actually pretty important.
If we reach a level where people get arrested for using an app, it doesn't really matter how many there are. See Turkey.
Or basic message reliability? There's no reason I should be getting "Bad encrypted message" so often. Or tons of repeats. And out of order messages. And random deliverability problems.
And it seems like it has a way of picking just the right time to fuck up. Right when there's a big question or when I need to say something important, bam, Signal will start being erratic. Plus the repeat messages has on at least one occasion ended up providing a totally different meaning.
I'd say with one particular contact, we exchange screenshots of Signal over MMS once a day to avoid misunderstandings.
Not perfect, but: https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/
I've given up on Signal (for now at least). Yes the encryption and privacy is great but without a decent desktop client it's hard to get others in my network to switch to it.
Two things bothered me about the desktop application - it runs as a Chrome application rather than in a tab (not sure if there is a technical reason for this?). If I care enough out privacy to run Signal then I probably don't want to broadcast to anyone watching my screen that I'm running it (like a boss walking past etc) and would rather bury it amongst my other open tabs. I also couldn't find any obvious way to sign out of or lock the desktop client - if this isn't just user error then it seems like a significant oversight for a secure messaging app to not allow the user to control access if someone else was able to access the computer.
It also really bothered me that signal doesn't give me better control over what contacts can see my phone number. When I signed in I could see phone numbers for a contractor I had used for remodelling my home. The desktop client had them listed as someone to message on the default page. It's not a huge deal in this situation but if the phone number was for someone I no longer wanted to be in touch with (a former partner etc) then there was no obvious way in either the Android app or desktop client to block them. I assume that the other user can also see my details - security should include having control over who can see your phone number.
Edit: Screenshots from the desktop app as a response to comment below:
http://imgur.com/5nK07ER - the default screen http://imgur.com/mmEyQWH - the settings UI
http://imgur.com/gjdyPsF - showing Signal in my dock for all to see.
There is a desktop client. It's packaged as a Chrome app. Some people downthread think a "decent" desktop app must be (more) standalone. You seem to think a "decent" desktop app should live inside a browser tab. It's hard to make everybody happy. People need to stop claiming there is no desktop app just because the very clearly existing one does not fulfill their own arbitrary set of criteria.
I don't know if you can sign out within Signal desktop (I assume you can, but I can't verify at the moment); you can sign out existing Signal sessions from within the mobile app.
The phone number is Signal's account identifier. You don't see somebody else's phone number because you've got them on Signal, you're seeing them on Signal because you've got their phone number. So you're worried about people having access to your phone number who already have access to your phone number. Signal using phone numbers as account identifiers has it's issues, this is not one of them.
I don't mean to be negative about Signal. I appreciate the work they have put into it and understand that the platform is maturing - as you said, they can't please everyone.
The chrome app vs tab is definitely a minor issue related to user preference. It's not a deal breaker for me personally but others in my network (who are less concerned about privacy) will not switch if it's not easy. Not being able to sign out is a possible deal breaker and seems like basic functionality that has security implications.
Thanks for the information about the phone numbers - I understand that they aren't a "contact" in the sense that we added each other. I do think the issue of having control over who can see my phone number is a valid one though. How would I block someone I no longer want to have contact with without changing my phone number? Again, this seems like basic functionality for a platform that is concerned about security and privacy.
Here are screenshots from the desktop app showing the only options I can see:
http://imgur.com/5nK07ER - the default screen (includes the contact that I mentioned in my first post as someone I can message right now.)
http://imgur.com/mmEyQWH - the settings UI
Okay, I checked now, and you're right, there does not seem to be a way to sign out (or, as they call it, unlink) the desktop app from within the desktop app. I agree, that's weird.
As a workaround, you can unlink using the phone app[1], and I assume (but have not checked) deleting the desktop app will also work.
[1] http://support.whispersystems.org/hc/en-us/articles/21645978...
On Android there's a button in the conversation settings to block the other party.
Thanks - I see it in there now. For anyone else looking for it, it's under options/conversation settings when you are in conversation view. Thanks again.
Because I know moxie comes here sometimes:
I can live with it being a Chrome app, but I'd really like it if I could use it to send messages to people who don't have Signal (like I can with the Android app). Signal mostly takes the path of being a drop-in replacement for my SMS app, so it seems a shame not to do the same here.
Wouldn't it then require a connection to the phone? Signal Desktop today doesn't need to connect to the phone.
Ah, I suppose that makes sense. I thought it worked via the phone.
1) We're moving from a mobile-first to mobile-only world. This prioritization shows that the signal team are fundamentally pragmatic.
2) Most people rely on cliche to communicate. It's obvious that gifs are another cheat that is being commonly integrated by most people. It's kind of silly to avoid acknowledging the reality of how younger people are commonly communicating.
3) Please don't be sad because a software team prioritized a feature you don't like. You deserve to have more control over your own emotions. Why would you let a software feature have such a drastic impact on your own happiness?
I think the key thing is not to sacrifice performance for form. Add all the stickers, GIFs, bots and other fancy features you want. But never let load time get under 200ms. Lots of people talking about how this makes it more broadly applicable but Facebook didn't just beat MySpace on simplicity of use and Farmville access, they also beat them on speed and reliability. Not mutually exclusive either. Keep up the good work.
I wish that they'd support secure contact sharing. And non-phone-number IDs.
Yes, exactly. You'd think those should be basics for a chat application that is so focused on security. You would expect that.
What you would not expect is gif search...
Telegram supports non-phone-number IDs btw.
Read this article yesterday (https://www.techinasia.com/line-dev-day), and the introduction was eye-opening. tl;dr people like that extra stuff in messaging apps.
Sure they do. But how this go together with security awareness? We are talking about a different market here and as I've posted somewhere else: sure we can have all that trendy crap in there at some point but please don't move that BEFORE the bigger issues out there. Let's not forget that we are talking about a free app here. If this app is being developed with an eye on monetizing at some point, chances are it will become insecure with that and just join the rows of chat apps out there already covering all that trending features. Which will lead to a different app covering the needs of people who use Signal today because they need secure messaging not another app with dancing puppies.
/// Wow. Woke up to not a single new comment but massive downvotes. Very mature guys.